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> Homebrewed Demolitions, Whacky ideas and inventive tactics.
The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 01:01 PM
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I've been going over the demolitions rules and started to wonder about how the characters could make use of the SR4 technology to make new explosives, and it seems to be even simpler than I thought. Ok, commercial explosive as the example can easily be replaced by other kinds but you get the idea.

Proximity mine / remote controlled

1 Commercial Explosive
1 RFID sensor tag
1 Motion sensor inserted into RFID tag.
1 Detonator Cap

Link Detonator Cap to RFID tag and stick it all into the explosives. Alternative use is to add skinlink to the tag and program it to activate after X amount of seconds after it leaves your hand. Activated RFID tag senses motion=BOOM.

Laser Tripmine

1 Commercial Explosive
1 RFID sensor tag
1 Range finder
1 Detonator Cap

As above but program the RFID tag to react to a lessening of detected laser range so that it detects closing targets and detonates at a given distance (1-5 meters or so)

MAD Mine
As above but with a MAD scanner so that it only detonates when it detects someone who is armed and/or wearing LOTS of chrome (BORGs are in the danger zone)





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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 01:17 PM
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Napalm.

one Gas resistant bucket, gas and plastic materials that will break down in the gas.
Splat it on something and watch it burn for a long time.
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The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Napalm.

Aah, so that way you basically have "Improvised Explosive". I assume that all one would need should be a logic+demolitions test to see how powerful one can make it.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 2 2006, 01:53 PM
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Napalm is not an explosive, it would be better covered using Chemistry rules (incendiary agents are considered C-weapons).

Those homebrew mines are quite elegant. What would those parts cost according to canon SR4?
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The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Napalm is not an explosive, it would be better covered using Chemistry rules (incendiary agents are considered C-weapons).

Those homebrew mines are quite elegant. What would those parts cost according to canon SR4?

Not much

RFID Sensor Tag 1Y
Sensor (50-100Y)
Skinlink 50Y
Explosive 100Y+

All items except explosives are also fully legal, or one can probably build them oneself with the correct skills.

needed skills

Electronics (probably Hardware & Software)
Demolitions
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 02:29 PM
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No way! Napalm is not an explosive? god your smart.


***insert large ammounts of assholery and sarcasm.****
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The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 02:32 PM
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I checked the rules for explosives and I must say that I find them a bit odd.

I can understand when you use them for demolitions of stationary objects but how do I calculate power for an improvised mine? A standard demolitions test sounds just fine but one should be able to use appropriate military knowledge as a complementary skill (effective mine placement, concealment of mine etc)

And how would one calculate an improvised grenade made of commercial explosives? Thatís a ďmeaslyĒ rating 3 explosive. Should one use Demolitions+Throwing to calculate explosive power since the placement of the explosives play a major part. Perhaps it would be flechette if one used nails - and have an AP value if one used ball bearing?
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 02:41 PM
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Man this Thread is starting to look like a Terrorists training manual for shadowrunners.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 2 2006, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
god your smart.

You want me to find a couple of dozen quotes where someone has had to clear up that point in the history of these forums?

QUOTE (The Jopp)
A standard demolitions test sounds just fine but one should be able to use appropriate military knowledge as a complementary skill (effective mine placement, concealment of mine etc)

Does that apply in any other situation in the rules, that a complementy skill increases the damage?

For the most part, I'd think the Demolitions skill covers placement etc. to maximize effect. Concealment and other tactical matters might of course be better delegated to other skills.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
And how would one calculate an improvised grenade made of commercial explosives? Thatís a ďmeaslyĒ rating 3 explosive. Should one use Demolitions+Throwing to calculate explosive power since the placement of the explosives play a major part.

If the improvised explosive is employed just like a hand grenade, then using hand grenade rules for it makes sense. Do you get to improve damage with the Throwing skill with hand grenades in canon SR4?

When comparing the damage rating of an actual hand grenade and an improvised one, you should keep in mind that the actual grenade is more likely to have relatively advanced explosives as the main filler and is designed from the ground up to amplify the power of the shock wave and fragmentation. I would personally have no trouble with a real defensive (frag) grenade having a damage code almost twice as good as a baseball-sized chunk of TNT with a detonator and a thin metal shell, considering the huge range of ratings in which explosives are available.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
Perhaps it would be flechette if one used nails - and have an AP value if one used ball bearing?

One thing to keep in mind is that no manner of fragmentation will ever penetrate (body) armor better than the shock wave itself, so giving an explosive device which relies on fragmentation (ball bearings or otherwise) a better AP rating than one which is primarily concussive is not very reasonable. Do frag grenades use flechette-like rules in canon SR4?

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Man this Thread is starting to look like a Terrorists training manual for shadowrunners.

And we haven't even begun discussing CAR BOMBING THE (draconic) PRESIDENT yet. :(
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warrior_allanon
post Jan 2 2006, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Man this Thread is starting to look like a Terrorists training manual for shadowrunners.

And we haven't even begun discussing CAR BOMBING THE (draconic) PRESIDENT yet. :(

now now platinum, we all know that big D's was a tac nuke set up as an AV mine in the center of one hell of a ritual circle. Oh wait, was i supposed to let that out? drek,

another thing is that for the napalm mine or as our guys called it in Vietnam "fu gas" you have to put a clump of explosive at the bottom the can that its in. The ratio is generally 1 kilo C4 to 55gallons of napalm or fuel so scale down from their
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The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Man this Thread is starting to look like a Terrorists training manual for shadowrunners.

Well, ask any Lonestar and they would look at you funny and say of COURSE they are terrorists, or at least organized criminals. :D :grinbig: :D

Then we have the possibilities for minor things like tiny bombs for blowing locks, car bombs, transponder/comlink detonators (one that detonates within a certain proximity of a commlinks signal) or even boobytrapped comlinks, Thermite bombs (very good for making holes in almost anything).
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The Jopp
post Jan 2 2006, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
When comparing the damage rating of an actual hand grenade and an improvised one, you should keep in mind that the actual grenade is more likely to have relatively advanced explosives as the main filler and is designed from the ground up to amplify the power of the shock wave and fragmentation. I would personally have no trouble with a real defensive (frag) grenade having a damage code almost twice as good as a baseball-sized chunk of TNT with a detonator and a thin metal shell, considering the huge range of ratings in which explosives are available.

Well, my problem is mostly the fact that an entire kilogram of say Dynamite (thatís quite a large chunk of explosives actually) have a basic rating of 3.

Even though a grenade is far more powerful they still have a lot less explosive (in volume at least but perhaps at rating 15 or so). Still, one kilogram of explosives if it explodes with its basic rating of 3 (explosives put in plain sight in front of an enemy) he will take 3 boxes of damage that is converted into stun and it has an AP of 0.

He wont even be affected by the shockwave with the SR4 rules, add the fact that if he is 1 meter away from the explosion it will be 1 box of damage. The only way to actually damage the guy would be to put him into a room with walls closer than 1,5 meters from him so that the chunky salsa effect reaches him.

With a home made GRENADE one should calculate itís actual force at creation (Demolition+Logic, each success adds +1 power) since it is the design that gives it damage potential while a home made BOMB should be calculated at itís intended location since the placement of the bomb is what actually makes it more powerful.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 2 2006, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
Well, my problem is mostly the fact that an entire kilogram of say Dynamite (thatís quite a large chunk of explosives actually) have a basic rating of 3.

Even though a grenade is far more powerful they still have a lot less explosive (in volume at least but perhaps at rating 15 or so). Still, one kilogram of explosives if it explodes with its basic rating of 3 (explosives put in plain sight in front of an enemy) he will take 3 boxes of damage that is converted into stun and it has an AP of 0.

This exact same problem was already around in SR3, but only two people on this board seemed to care (Arethusa and me).

The easiest way to get around this would be to simply cut down the range of explosive ratings by vastly increasing ratings at the lower end and perhaps slightly decreasing them at the upper. For example, 1kg of TNT could easily be 6-8P, and cheap stuff like quality ANFO could be 4-5P. (IRL, C-4 is only about 19-37% more powerful than TNT, depending on whether you're measuring impulse or pressure, while commercial ANFO is about 82% as powerful as TNT).

Still, straight high explosives really aren't that deadly when there's no fragmentation. It's not necessarily unrealistic that you can stand some 5 meters away in the open from 1kg of TNT going off and not suffer permanent injuries, other than perhaps to your ears (and you could easily be stunned by it, or have the wind knocked out of you). But 1kg TNT + a pile of metal rubble should be really scary.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
With a home made GRENADE one should calculate itís actual force at creation (Demolition+Logic, each success adds +1 power) since it is the design that gives it damage potential while a home made BOMB should be calculated at itís intended location since the placement of the bomb is what actually makes it more powerful.

I think that's an artificial separation. A home made grenade is just a home made bomb made for a specific function. With any kind of improvised explosive device, the design is crucially important. After that, the effects of the bomb are decided by its placement just like the effects of a grenade are decided by where you throw(/launch) it.

Or did you mean this is just how it'd work according to canon, and now how you suggest it should be done?

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 2 2006, 05:02 PM
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SpasticTeapot
post Jan 2 2006, 06:10 PM
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These ones are great if you've got cybereyes and an image link.

1. The Roly-Poly Cam
Find a plastic ball of very strong plastic, like polycarbonate. Cut it in half. In one half, place a very small wireless videocamera; in the other, the battery and some small weights. When you throw the ball, the camera will always point up. Simple, but useful if you really have to get a camera in somewhere, and if you use the right type of camera, you can get a full hemisphere of vision.

2. The R/C Car Bomb.
Buy a good quality R/C car. (NewBright RC cars do not qualify.) Under the plastic cover, place about a half a kilo of C4. Attach a cheap micro-videocamera (they sell 'em at Geeks.com for 35$; they must be even cheaper in 2070).
A good use for this is as a form of carbomb. Most vehicles' weak spot is on their underside; by steering the car directly under the gas tank of the target, you can blow up their car with relative ease.

3. The Blimp-0-Bomb
This is a rather useful object for inconspicuously delivering a nasty bit of explosives onto a target.
First, find a large birthday baloon; the larger the better. A small weather baloon might work, too. It should be able to lift at least 300 grams.
Then, find a yogurt container (one of the little plastic ones that hold four ounces of yogurt), and place within it 250 grams of C12 and a detonator set to go off upon impact. Wrap it up in tissue paper, and tie a ribbon around it.
On the baloon is placed a tiny charge, which may be remotely detonated. The baloon is attached to the yogurt container by a standard string.
All you need do is to go upwind of the target, and "accidentally" release the baloon. The bomb looks like a standard baloon ballast, so nobody's likely to notice it too much. Then, when it's over the target, detonate the charge, popping the ballon, and blowing up anything directly below it.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 06:17 PM
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oh don't forget the classic suicide bomb-er.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
god your smart.


You want me to find a couple of dozen quotes where someone has had to clear up that point in the history of these forums?
*********************************************************


Um yeah go ahead waste your time, i really could'nt care.




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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 06:19 PM
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i've been here longer, i've seen alot.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 2 2006, 07:06 PM
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Okay. Next time you don't care about something, though, it might be better to ignore it than to flame someone for it.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 2 2006, 08:25 PM
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I can't help being a huge asshole, just ask SnowFox his run into me, thats if he remembers.

And i'll flame when i see neccasary, and if your going to be a dick first, i'll just return fire.

I may not care but it sure is fun to watch you people write me back.
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Hasaku
post Jan 2 2006, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE (Mr.Platinum @ Jan 2 2006, 01:25 PM)
And i'll flame when i see neccasary, and if your going to be a dick first, i'll just return fire.

I fail to see how pointing out that napalm is not an explosive, which was the point of the thread, is being a dick. Especially since he did it respectfully with no insult to you.

QUOTE
I may not care but it sure is fun to watch you people write me back.


My god, It's like Blakkie and Doc Funkenstein had an unholy love child, then sent him back in time to pollute the forums!
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The Jopp
post Jan 3 2006, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I think that's an artificial separation. A home made grenade is just a home made bomb made for a specific function. With any kind of improvised explosive device, the design is crucially important. After that, the effects of the bomb are decided by its placement just like the effects of a grenade are decided by where you throw(/launch) it.

Or did you mean this is just how it'd work according to canon, and now how you suggest it should be done?

*Rereads the Explosives rulesÖ*

Aha, so THATís how it works. Correct me if Iím wrong here. I make Demolitions+Logic and add +1 to DV for each success and add the base power of the attack X the square root of the kilograms used. So 2KG commercial explosives with 5 successes would be DV 8 X 1,41=11

Final DV11?

I mixed things up between Barriers & People
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Darkness
post Jan 3 2006, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
Aha, so THATís how it works. Correct me if Iím wrong here. I make Demolitions+Logic and add +1 to DV for each success and add the base power of the attack X the square root of the kilograms used. So 2KG commercial explosives with 5 successes would be DV 8 X 1,41=11

Final DV11?

Yes. That's correct.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 3 2006, 12:53 PM
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Do some of you feel that the Improv explosives are weak?

Look in Iraq and Aphganistan, there Improv's are just blowing the shit out of Americans armoured vehicles.

or am i just missing somthing.
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The Jopp
post Jan 3 2006, 01:12 PM
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Hmm, how DOES one calculate improvised explosives? Is it just Demolitions+Logic to see how powerful the stuff becomes? This means that no matter how precise you measure and fix the improvised explosives they will never have a minimum DV above 1?

Hmm, the rules under ďExplosivesĒ doesnít sound right for CREATING explosives, Iíd rather use the B/R rules and set a specific threshold depending on base power level. For example:


Mad bomber Joe wants to blow up a building and decides to create a rather powerful explosive and with some help from an AR manual and the right tools he creates a rating 4 explosive. The threshold for creating the explosive would in this case be a base threshold of 4, modified by working conditions.



Yea, I ignored the basic threshold from the B/R table since the difficulty should be based upon the complexity of the explosives.


Now we have the explosive at a rating 4, Joe now creates the actual bomb and rolls Demolitions+Logic to see how effective his actual bomb will become when he packs it into a small canister and adds a detonator cap. He gets 4 successes and the bombs gets a modified rating of 8 multiplied by the square root of the amount of KG he will finally use (2 kg would give him roughly a DV11 bomb.)

What do you think? Workable?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jan 3 2006, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp)
MAD Mine
As above but with a MAD scanner so that it only detonates when it detects someone who is armed and/or wearing LOTS of chrome (BORGs are in the danger zone)

Vehicles.

Atmospheric sensors are evil in stable environments, too - as soon as air pressure changes (opening a door/window).

Sticking those Stealth Sensor Tags to grenades is even more useful - especially to disk shaped ones, as they will always land in a stable position (out of two, so you only waste two motion sensor tags).
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