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> SR4 Errata version 1.3...
fenikso
post Jan 4 2006, 05:37 PM
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... is out 8) .

Just if you did not notice. Because I noticed by the chance.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 4 2006, 05:41 PM
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Several people have noticed already, and side-discussions are cropping up in various threads, but I suppose this would be the place for everyone to talk about the new changes.
Anyone feeling surprised? Vindicated? Angered?
No one's really surprised by the Adept nerf, since it's been out in the German errata for a while, but what do people think?
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Skippy
post Jan 4 2006, 06:42 PM
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I think the Adept Nerf is probably for the best.

The rules as written are open to a lot of different interpretations. The fact that the book cautions against abuse of the Adept quality, but then leaves out what that abuse might be is confusing at best.

For instance. Recently there has been a thread about adept hackers. Right around the time that it was started, I had posed a similar question to my GM about a character I was making. That character could be hacker extraordinaire as a starting character via improved Ability: hacking 5, and could do so for very little build point cost. The same can be said for just about anything else. 5 build points (adept with 1 magic) could get you 4 extra dice for your pool. More points could get you quite a number of extra dice, even if the number spent on each pool was limited by the rank of the actual skill)

For those with adept characters already, it's got to be a pain in the butt... for those looking for better game balance, it's certainly a welcome change. Otherwise, the only thing keeping just about every joe schmoe from being an adept is a vague caution to GMs about abuse.

Just my $.02.

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PlatonicPimp
post Jan 4 2006, 06:51 PM
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hell, it's still abusive. They should raise the cost for improved ability in all skills to .25. All that lowering the cost for non-combat skills does is discourage players from playing combat adepts, which is rediculous because Combat adepts should be the norm. for 5 BP I can boost 2 skills by 2 points, past the unmodified limit? Best damn 5 BP spent, Ever. The only reason not to becasue you're going to get cyber.

I don't know about you , but I don't want the only choice to be between cyber or magic. Nerfing adepts so that their abilities cost proportional to other similar abilities would be a much welcome change.
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Lagomorph
post Jan 4 2006, 07:14 PM
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I like that they added the Immunity to inhalation vector toxins to gas masks
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Cheops
post Jan 4 2006, 08:45 PM
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I seem to be the only one who's enraged about the adept thing. Then again, every adept that I or anyone in my group has tried designing for SR4 has always had magic 4-6. Never lower. Sure the errata gets rid of the low Magic exploit but the only reason I see for its need is for loose enforcement of the "no Adept if you don't plan on being an adept" rule. This just makes it much more effective to be something other than an adept unless you do the skill character with Magic 1. I think it just makes the low Magic adept exploit more favorable than before.

5 points for +2 dice to two skills is much more favorable now. Before I'd make an Adept with 6 magic, +4 to 4 skills and other random stuff. Now I'd rather have Magic 5 (6) with Skillwires and Enhanced Articulation, and +2 to 8 skills and astral perception. Personally I think the second is far worse especially if they reintroduce Gayass (or is it Gaesa?) and don't force you onto the path of the Burnout when you lose Magic. Plus I find it generally better to be more focused at first and become versatile later.

Cyber, Gear, Magic, and Resonance are all more efficient than Adept abilities. The bonus was in IA. At least that's my feeling anyway.
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ElFenrir
post Jan 4 2006, 08:59 PM
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I don't see where this errata affects many, unless most adepts poured TONS into skills. I always played it with the intention of Improved Ability following the cap. My adept has just Perception 4(6) with some, Intimidation 5(7) with some more. I guess if folks were buying Pistols 4 and then 4 more dice in it, THEN they'd be affected.

but otherwise, besides the Attribute Boost nerf(and hitting THAT much to get it way past the limit was rare anyway), i don't see much of a problem.
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PlatonicPimp
post Jan 4 2006, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops)

Cyber, Gear, Magic, and Resonance are all more efficient than Adept abilities. The bonus was in IA. At least that's my feeling anyway.


Cyber: Costs money, you lose essence. The magic point you lose in this can be considered "Spent" if you like, but there are other drawbacks to this. For one, you become harder to heal. Second, several skills and abilities (like attribute boost) are based on your magic rating, which is now lower. Third, you have to pay Karma on any further increases to magic as if you hadn't lost any magic at all.

Cyber can also be detected with a simple assense or cyberware detector. There is no means of detecting an adept technologically, and it is more difficult to suss one out astrally than a cyberhound. As far as I Know, there is no way to determine what powers an adept has.

Gear: any gear that isn't cyber can be used by an adept without trouble. since it can be added equally to both sides of the equation, it has no effect.

Magic: Again, Equally added to both sides. A mage can cast and sustain any spell they want on the adept. Heck, a mystic adept can do it themselves.

Resonance: apples to oranges, mate. name ONE THING that you can do with resonance that you can do with adept powers, or vice versa. (OK, you can increase your hacking pool. Resonance adds directly to it for the technomancer, while an adept can increase teh skill with IA. As far as I'm concerned, ot is a good thing that technomancers are better at hacking than adepts.)

The advantage to being an adept is concealability, access to powers unduplicatable by cyber, unlimited potential, lack of need for money for upgrades, no need for surgery, always active, undispellable, unjammable, unremovable badassery.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 4 2006, 10:51 PM
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Any one know when 2nd printing is going to be shipped?
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JongWK
post Jan 4 2006, 11:04 PM
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It's already in stores. :)
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Jaid
post Jan 4 2006, 11:04 PM
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you mean the book? should already be in stores, or such is my understanding.
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RunnerPaul
post Jan 4 2006, 11:24 PM
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Though keep in mind, there are a few changes listed in v1.3 of the errata that are not in the second printing.

I think this is a brave move on the part of FanPro. The errata document should list everything that they know needs fixing, not just everything the latest corrected printing has fixed. It would have been very easy for them to just leave off the handful of changes that weren't in the corrected second printing, but they chose to include them instead. Bravo, I say.
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Bearclaw
post Jan 5 2006, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
you mean the book? should already be in stores, or such is my understanding.

Which stores? Not my LGS. They said their distributer actually laughed at them when they tried to pin him down on a date.
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emo samurai
post Jan 5 2006, 12:48 AM
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Links? All I could find on Google was german sites, and I don't sprachen zie Deutsch.
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RunnerPaul
post Jan 5 2006, 12:53 AM
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No. If you can't find FanPro's official english site for shadowrun using google, you don't deserve to know where it is.
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 5 2006, 12:56 AM
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www.shadowrunrpg.com

may give you a link Emo


and it's already out?


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JongWK
post Jan 5 2006, 12:58 AM
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emo:

Step 1) Go to Google.com

Step 2) Type "Shadowrun"

Step 3) Click on "Search"

Step 4) Click on the top result, which states "The official site for the FanPro US published roleplaying game Shadowrun, containing product information, freebies, and columns from the developers."
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Mr.Platinum
post Jan 5 2006, 01:00 AM
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or you can just typre in what i put in my post.


www.shadowrunrpg.com
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nick012000
post Jan 5 2006, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
hell, it's still abusive. They should raise the cost for improved ability in all skills to .25. All that lowering the cost for non-combat skills does is discourage players from playing combat adepts, which is rediculous because Combat adepts should be the norm. for 5 BP I can boost 2 skills by 2 points, past the unmodified limit? Best damn 5 BP spent, Ever. The only reason not to becasue you're going to get cyber.

I don't know about you , but I don't want the only choice to be between cyber or magic. Nerfing adepts so that their abilities cost proportional to other similar abilities would be a much welcome change.

No, you can't.

SR4, p. 187, under Adept Powers: The maximum level for any adept powers is equal to their Magic Attribute.
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RunnerPaul
post Jan 5 2006, 06:48 AM
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So, Four skills by 1 point each then?
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 5 2006, 02:42 PM
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Sure. Four skills by one point. So now you have a character with the weakest adept power list ever, NO cyber, no other magic, not a technomancer.....what about this character is overpowered?
Sure, it's five BP well spent for the zero-cyberware amish hackers of the world. :S Or maybe a face, who doesn't do anything else.
Sorry, that was maybe a little too sarcastic. I acknowledge that a character can get four skill points for only 5 BP in this way, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a character build that exploits this and becomes overpowered because of it.
I will humbly accept anyone's example of such a character. :oops:
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Adam
post Jan 5 2006, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
I think this is a brave move on the part of FanPro. The errata document should list everything that they know needs fixing, not just everything the latest corrected printing has fixed. It would have been very easy for them to just leave off the handful of changes that weren't in the corrected second printing, but they chose to include them instead. Bravo, I say.

I should also note that there are a bunch of things that have been fixed that aren't listed in the errata -- we normally limit the posted errata to issues that effect mechanical issues, understanding of mechanical issues, problems with game world information, or real world factual updates [mistakes in the credits, etc]. Generally not listed in the posted errata are typos, small organizational changes, image fixes, etc.
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stormvane
post Jan 6 2006, 08:59 PM
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I don't understand the whining about the skill caps for magical boosts. They need to adhere to game balance. Besides, improved ability still has an edge over other types of skill boost.

Example:
Samurai: Pistols (semi-autos): 6(+2), Agility 6, Reflex recorder (Pistols), Smartlink, ambidextrous

Single Pistol Dice pool: 17
Two Pistol Dice pool: 7

Adept: Pistols (semi-autos): 6(+2), Agility 6, Improved ability Pistols 3, ambidextrous

Single Pistol Dice Pool: 17
Two Pistol Dice Pool: 8

I know that is is only one die, but it is an advantage. Further, with the single pistol example, there is nothing to prevent an adept from also using a smartgun with appropriate eyewear. There are other weaknesses as well, Smartlinks can be broken, disabled, or even absent from the weapon altogether.The difference becomes even more pronounced when dealing with melee weapons. Improved ability can also be taken for things that reflex recorders and other bonus giving technology can't. Playing an adept is not about out-of-the-box total combat domination. That's the forte of cyberware. The adept is about building greater potential power over the course of play. As I have said in other posts, people should stop looking for no-brainer twink strategies.

I do, however, have a question that needs answering. Its about recoil (i don't want to beat a dead horse, but it keeps moving). I have read the reply by Rob Boyle about recoil comp being applied to each burst. However, with the errata 1.3 changes, the example of a wide burst now directly contradicts what Rob said.

To Review: A person is firing his smg with two points of recoil comp in a narrow burst. He has Agi 5 and automatics 4 for a total dice pool of 9. -3 of other modifiers apply. The two points of recoil compensation negate the -2 recoil penalty of the first burst. One the second burst, he switches to a wide burst because he is facing a lot of recoil. The recoil reduces his dice pool to 3.
Rob has stated that if you have recoil compensation, it applies to both bursts equally. Shouldn't this example leave is total dice pool at 5.
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PlatonicPimp
post Jan 6 2006, 09:24 PM
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But there ARE no brainer twink strategies. Cyberware is a no brainer twink strategy. Playing a summoner elf with max charisma is a no brainer twink strategy. And however much we say "But don't twink" the line between power gaming and intellignet character desing is a thn one. At what point does making intelligent decisions cross over into twinking? I know I've crossed that line many a time. I've yet to make a character under the new system that has less than 10 dice for their character's forte. Is that good design, or twinking? Is there an objective way to judge/

My game philosophy is that you cannot prevent twinking, but you can understand it and work with it. You have to understand WHAT the possible exploits are and learn to minimize them in your game design. The system itself must be designed to make sure that there are possibilities for good character design while making sure that no particular choice is universally better than all others. But you can't just say' don't twink" because that doesn't solve the basic problem, which is the exploit available in the rules.
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Squinky
post Jan 6 2006, 09:35 PM
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Stormvane your example pitting adepts v.s. Sammys has one big problem. Street Sams will most likey have higher attributes, even in agility I would say the average human sam has a 7 with the muscle toner. So that kinda makes up for the adept ability to get more skill dice. Unless of course the adept was crazy enough to get his agility improved with the adept power that costs 2 whole points to do the same thing .2 essence costs a sam....
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