 SR4 Errata version 1.3... |
  |
 Jan 6 2006, 09:36 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320  |
Or uses the attibute boost power which can boost his agility up to his modified max based on a die roll you can spend edge on for .25 points.
|
 |
 
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:40 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
But takes a simple action now, the traitorous power! I love the power, but a simple action every fight makes it only feasible to have one attribute boosted power, and would make drawing a weapon and attacking pretty impossible if you use it in the first round...And still, the typical sammy will have that +2 agility and str right out of the box...
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:42 PM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You know, honestly the best conjurers I've seen in SR4 have been Hermetics. Binding spirits is such a big, powerful, and dangerous deal that I have yet to see any character seriously run into the Charisma cap for max bound spirits. Even twinker conjurers usually just have 1-3 spirits that they focus on. Drain from binding is so large, and so random that twinking a conjurer is more about minimizing healing times than it is about rolling the most dice to resist drain. Honestly, the twink conjurer appears to be a Dwarf Hermetic that specializes their Medicine skill in Magical Health. I don't think that there really are any "no brainer twink strategies" anymore. Twinking is actually kind of a lot of work. So far, everything that people have put forward as being a "no brainer" has generally been not all that great. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:43 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
The charisma isn't to resist drain, it's to bind the most spirits possible.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 10:34 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I know what it's for, I'm just saying that your min/max fu is weak. The high end of power conjuring is all Charisma independent.
Remote Service Rush: Summon an unbound spirit, send it on remote service. Repeat. This tactic is really nasty, and runs out when you become too stunned to continue doing it. Thus, it is limited by your First Aid skill (to remove Stun blocks) and to a lesser extent by your Willpower (to have more Stun). Thus Hermetic Dwarves are the best at this highly abusive tactic. Overcasting: Summon a spirit that is as large as you can manage - double your own Magic if you can swing it. Spirits of this size can waltz through most major engagements by themselves. Of course, the key here is to not die, rather than be able to do it at all. Your survival chances are inceased by having more physical damage boxes at a rate 3 times that of having more drain resistance dice. But your rate of fire is proportional to your Biotech abilities more than anything (followed by your body). So actually the best single shot is held by an Ork Fern Witch, followed by a Dwarven Hermetic, followed by an Elvish Shaman. The best Rate of Fire is held by the Dwarf Hermetic though. Big Bound Spirits: Conjuring up your 6+ spirits doesn't mean dick unless they are badass. Binding spirits is really time consuming and as dangerous as Overcasting. Maybe more so. Binding Spirits however often targets your stun boxes like a Remote Service Rush (favoring the Dwarf) while inflicting massive drain like the overcasting (favoring the Dwarf). Yeah, an Elf can have 8 spirits on hand. But that's not where the power is, so I don't care. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 01:07 AM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Gives a good reason to have Magic at 6 actually. F12 is an extra power over F10. Not sure if it is worth it, but would be a likely possibility. A F12 Spirit of Man w/ Optional powers of Innate Spell - Stunball and Innate Spell - Heal, Innate Spell - Mob Mind and Fear is a very dangerous character. B 13, A 12, R 14 S10. All others 12, except Initiative is 26. Guess who goes first. Rolling 24 dice to cast their F 15 Stunball. Talking average of 8 hits for 23 damage stun to a 15 meter area. Can up the F if needed to cover larger area. Rolling 24 dice on drain resistance test, 8 hits on that means no drain. 14 boxes of stun available, so overcasting to 24 is very doable, taking on average 4 stun. Can also heal anyone in the party without taking drain, fully of all physical damage. Mob Mind should be obvious. You don't even have to beat your opponents, they join you. Fear is even worse. 24 dice vs opponents willpower. Max of 10 or so. You will be running from them. Heck, if they feel like going old school on you, they can punch you, base DV 5 S, but rolling 24 dice on the attack test. This is the major flaw with a linear system. Fire spirit guards can engulf you, rolling 24 dice to "hit" and having a base DV of 12. Same with any spirit with elemental attack. Looking at 20 damage vs vehicles. That is enough to get through the everything but the Citymaster. If you manage to get 1 net hit over the city master then you can blow that to smithereens too. And if you run up against something really formidable, like a tank, have no fear. Give the spirit of man Innate Spell - Powerbolt. F24 Power bolt, Drain of 13. Rolling 24 dice to cast and then 24 to resist drain, you get a base DV of 32, and end up taking 5 boxes of physical damage. Judging by the stats in the book, I seriously doubt we will see anything that can take DV 32. Except maybe the GD with their F = Excessive spirits overcasting spells on them. If for some reason you find someone who has excessive magical shielding, use an elemental manip spell to pound them, it is only 4 more boxes of damage. This is seriously sicker than I thought. Oh yeah, final note. Magic 6 + Summoning (Aptitude 7) + Specialty in Spirits of Man + F3 Summoning focus for Air, Earth, Fire & Man can easily be gotten by starting character. Oh and F2 power focus. Plus any mentor if you have them. 18 dice to start on the summoning test, 20 vs man, + any edge. Spirit gets 12. Averages 4 hits, for a total of 8 Physical drain. Roll 10 dice for drain resistance (can't afford 6 and 6) to get 3 successes. So for the low cost of 5 physical (First Aid 5 + Log 5 = 3 successes dropping it to 4 Phys) that may or may not be able to be healed by the very spirit you summon, (can you Heal drain with magic) you can have all of this major ass kicking as a starting character. Pretty sick. Imagine what a dragon or initiate can do. By the RAW, playing or using anything other than magicians is for suckers. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 7 2006, 02:48 AM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 3-January 06 Member No.: 8,130 |
Two points: One, when i say brainless twink strategy, I mean any strategy that seeks to endlessly repeat some actions or purchase without any thought to possibly equal or even better strategy that require some actual creativity and for thought. For instance, there are two primary damage mitigation strategies for physical damage types: dodging it and resisting it, both with inherent pros and cons. Instead of smartly mixing the two, perhaps with a preference toward the characters strengths, people repeatedly buy the same power or more levels of it without any idea that some diversity might benefit them. I'm not going to stand here and tell a person playing a troll not to put serious power behind resisting damage, or someone with a good reaction to not put emphasis on dodging as a combat strategy. If 10 dice in a forte is your threshold for comfort, then stick to it. I wouldn't call such a person a twinker. In fact, dice has nothing to do with it.
Two, with the new drain rules, an elf shaman is only one stun box behind but one drain resistance die ahead. With the ability to keep more spirits on tap, I imagine the stakes come out about even. |
|
|
|
| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 7 2006, 02:52 AM
Post
#33
|
|
Guests |
"I pop up and shoot!"
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 06:20 PM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I've been away for a bit, so could you help me out by pointing me to where it was clarified what kind of action it takes? I don't see this in the errata, and it is one of the things about Boost that I send in a question about. The other thing was whether the amount you can be Boosted by is capped by the levels of Boost you have. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 7 2006, 06:39 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
That should answer your questions blakkie ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 7 2006, 06:51 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
One of them, thanks. :) I printed that out a few minutes back, but somehow missed the second part of that entry. Maybe it was the screaming kid that wanted to eat the paper that distracted me? :oops:
Actually I guess it answers two of my questions, the second answer by abstention being "There isn't a power level based cap, only the maximum augmented." P.S. @Squinky: Even if it was a Free Action you only get one Free Action, so Boost for multiple Attributes would still be somewhat limited. As for Boost + Draw + Attack, I'd think that allowing Quickdraw of a knife (being roughly pistol-sized) isn't entirely out of the spirit of the action even if the RAW Weenies would claim you can't do it because you aren't "firing" the knife. :wobble: Sword/staff/whip would seem to be too large to fall under the Quickdraw action though. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 11:27 PM
Post
#37
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 15-December 05 Member No.: 8,075 |
Or if you're a Shaman a high Charisma to go with the high Will and not take drain in the first place. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 7 2006, 11:35 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
We always played Attribute Boost under a Simple Action, though i don't see a problem with the quickdraw thing. Then again, drawing is a simple action, so you could boost, draw, then position yourself for the attack. If you're going unarmed, i suppose you could boost 2 attributes, then position for the attack.
Quickdraw is a free action, is it not? I can't quite recall and i don't have the book with me. If it is, technically you could boost 2 attributes, then quickdraw and be ready for the next turn. The cap isn't so terrible...i didn't know that was the case til now, but typically, most folks roll 6-7 dice for a boost unless they REALLY jack the power...i typically land 2-3 hits a boost with my adept. With a base 4, you'd need 5 hits just to hit the 9(or max augmented for a human.) I guess it would really only start to suck if you had a 6 in an attribute and bought the power at lv. 4 or something. Then i can see folks getting a bit upset about the nerf. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 8 2006, 12:14 PM
Post
#39
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Quickdraw is a simple action that includes both drawing and a attack that would normally be a simple action all by itself. Although the wording of the text implies it is about ranged attacks i personally don't see a problem with extending that to a melee attack, with an appropriately sized weapon.
I don't calling it a "nerf" at all. I never expected to be able to exceed augmented max for an attribute with it. *shrug* Even it taking a Simple Action is way better than it being a Complex Action, and without it being spelled out that was just as good a guess. I really didn't expect it to be a Free Action. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 8 2006, 06:14 PM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Good luck with that. Even a Force 4 spirit has a perceptible chance of delivering 8S drain. At that point, you'll average taking no drain if your Willpower + Charisma is 24 (which it isn't). Conjuring is intensely random. There is no such thing as a character who successfully summons every time, nor is there a character who doesn't take drain sometimes. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 9 2006, 05:26 PM
Post
#41
|
|||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I'm not so sure that a spirit can take "Innate Spell" multiple times to load out different spells. Italics mine:
This states that whenever you take Innate Spell, you get just one spell. This part is easily agreed upon.
There's nothing there that says you can or can't take any individual optional power multiple times. Obviously there's no use in taking any other optional power more than once, so it becomes a question of "lack of precedent" versus "possible interpretation." |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 9 2006, 07:45 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
That is a nice try and I had hope for a bit for some toning down. Alas not though.
The problem is that the power is not Innate Spell. The power is Innate Spell: Heal or what have you. Thus Innate Spell: Heal and Innate Spell: Stunball are in fact two seperate and distinct powers. Reference Thunderbird, which lists Innate Spell (Lightning Bolt) On the other hand, Enhanced Senses for many critters lists as such. Enhanced Senses (Low light, thermo, see's through clothing, what have you) Which implies that more than one expression of a power can be gained. I imagine this is for ease of use, and a critter that had two innate spells would be as such. Innate Spell (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Ball) for instance. It is all just theory, but the broken part is not that they have three innate spells, it is the F12. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 9 2006, 08:28 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Agreed, it's the F12 that's the scary part. But as previously discussed, the summoner of the F12 is effectively playing Russian roulette and will eventually blow him/herself up from physical drain. By "blow," I mean "instantly suicide."
The precedent of multiple Enhanced Senses still doesn't completely translate into valid multiple Innate Spells for a spirit. Senses come with the factory model while the "magician selects what Optional Power(s) he wishes a summoned spirit to possess." One is a RAW description of a species while the other is player whim. That is to say that while it's canonically valid to have multiples of the same critter power, the fact remains that nothing (except possibly the GM sitting in front of you) explicitly says it's okay to give a spirit multiple Innate Spells as their optional powers. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2006, 04:13 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
However there isn't anything explicitly forbidding it either. You may choose to read into it what you want, but the RAW by itself certainly does not rule out multiple Innate Spells. *shrug* |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2006, 01:43 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 18-August 03 From: Apopka, FL U.S.A. Member No.: 5,516 |
This question is primarily directed to Adam, but I'd like to know when the SR4 .pdf will be updated on the Battlecorps website with the new erratta, and will our download links be refreshed?
Thanks, Robert |
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2006, 04:01 PM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 30-December 05 Member No.: 8,114 |
Probably this week as the PDF is ready and only Battlecorps and DriveThruRPG need to be co-ordinated as replied by Adam and Rob on this thread. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2006, 08:14 PM
Post
#47
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Lookit that, Blakkie is agreeing with me. Where's my red pen? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 12 2006, 06:05 AM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Just out of curiosity, would it be possible to clean out the errata thread of anything that's been corrected, whether or not it's listed on 1.3? I just skimmed through all 16 pages, and while I can see that many of the posts in there have been addressed, a large portion of the posts involve those minor changes that wouldn't be listed under the above criterion. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 14 2006, 07:29 AM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Ugh. That's a good question; doing so would be really time intensive, and I'm not a huge fan of going back and retroactively editing threads in such a way.
I'd like to suggest that a new thread be created, instead. I can go through the current thread and re-post items to the new thread that were not addressed in the 1.3 errata/sending printing. Then the new thread can continue as normal. Does that make sense? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14 2006, 10:15 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, as soon as the updated version of the PDF is available, sure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd January 2025 - 03:33 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.