 Skillsoft Incompetence, Oh God... |
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 Jan 6 2006, 06:19 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803  |
I just realized that there is nothing forbidding someone from taking the Incompetent Negative Quality, and, using a skillwire system and an Activesoft, having that skill anyways. Sure, you can't spend edge on it, but that's 5 bonus points for sacrificing...well...nothing. Thoughts? |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:24 PM
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#2
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Well, if you replace the word "nothing" with the words, "the cost of the skillwire system, the chip, the essence, and the ability to use edge", then I totally agree with you.
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Jan 6 2006, 06:25 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
True - but, skillwire is a common bit of cyber - every street sam I've made in SR4 so far has had one. This is only applicable with a razored character of course, but it's still kinda loopy. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:30 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
If you take Incomp: Unarmed (+5 BP) and then buy Skillwires 3 (6k nuyen, .6 Essence) and then the Unarmed-3 Activesoft (9k nuyen) for a total of 15k nuyen (3 BPs), then you're basically trading in .6 Essence and the ability to roll Edge on Unarmed for 2 BPs.
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Jan 6 2006, 06:35 PM
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#5
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I absolutely agree. Especially that skillwires are a great bit of gear. But a skillwire system can only do so much at a time, so the skill making up for your incompetance is using part of the skillwire system that could be doing something else. Sure, you can switch skills, but sometimes time is tight.
If all you're saying is that it seems like a really good idea to take incompetance in a skill you're planning on chipping anyway, I definitely agree. If you're saying that the incompetance/skillwire exchange is such an amazingly great deal then every character should do this no question, I think there are enough disadvantages in the mix to disagree. If you just pointing out that characters with an incompetance should seriously consider skillwires, I agree and it sounds like a very realistic, in-character thing to do. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:36 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Yeah, but obviously you'd take incompetent many times, not just one. Also you could take skillwire Alpha and reduce your essence loss to 0,48. My GM incidentially stated, quite sensibly IMO, that if you bought skillwire for a skill you were incompetent in, he'd rule that you didn't understand the program. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:39 PM
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#7
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
From an IC PoV, using skillwires for things you can neither learn nor really try is about the only way to ever do them. ;)
Incompetence in SR4 shouldn't be taken lightly, though. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:43 PM
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I didn't think about taking incompetance multiple times.
Maybe incompetance should give diminishing returns. One incompetance gives you 5 points, but if you take it agian you only get 2, or something like that. Thoughts? |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:46 PM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Incompetence is a crippling flaw in SR4... those measly 5 BP are hardly worth it.
Taking it multiple times is, well, somehow masochistic. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:47 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Hmm...I think you're off a bit: total savings should be 14bp, actually - you're forgetting to account for matching final numbers (unarmed 3 = 12 bp) unless I'm mistaken about how skillwires work. |
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Jan 6 2006, 06:56 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
That would depend on how, and how much your GM uses notority. Skillwire essentially eliminates the direct negative effect of not being able to use the skill. |
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Jan 6 2006, 07:11 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
It would just suck if the person lost their softs now, wouldn't it?
Yeah, Incompetence is a rather masochistic flaw. It SEEMS alright(ahh, boy, the Archetype sammie is incompetent in hacking, whee), but really, you don't want to be stuck with them. Remember people who take incompetence in varied social skills, you also cannot default to defend against them being used against you. As for the skillwires thing, yeah, you pay for it a bit, but...no edge, and they CAN be taken from you. Woe to the person who makes themselves Incompetent in four or so skills and tries to wire them all in... |
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Jan 6 2006, 07:17 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Well obviously your Street samurai shouldn't be incompetent in Dodge, Pistols, Automatics, Longarms, Blades, Clubs and Unarmed. You'd pick skill that you expected not to use to much, and use the Skillwire as insurance. |
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Jan 6 2006, 07:26 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What about a mage who's incompetent at hacking? That's okay, since no one could give him lethal biofeedback.
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Jan 6 2006, 08:09 PM
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#15
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Qualities are by their very nature extremely easy to exploit if they are not kept in check by the GM. It is obviously a good idea to slot skillsofts of things you are incompetent at, sure, as is getting lenses if you see badly or getting a cyberarm if you´ve lost your right arm. The qualities you take will still have to be ok´d by the GM and fit your character though. I for one do not allow players to take incompetence in any skill that for some reason would never be used by the character anyway (skills that are called for by circumstance are always allowed, like infiltration, perception and dodge). Taking that into account, I think skillwires actually make the 5BP award for this quality a bit more fair. It can be a very big disadvantage without them.
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Jan 6 2006, 08:26 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
In my campaign I forbade incompetence for any of the Trained only skills, those that were in italics on the skill list. you can't default on those anyway, so incompetence with those wasn't really a drawback. The only exception I made was for magic skills for mages, as that seemed the best way to make aspecected summoners and conjourers.
I'd rule that skillwires would overcome incompetence, just make sure you don't take incompetence in computers! |
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Jan 6 2006, 09:17 PM
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#17
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
True, but nothing prevents you from starting the game without the skillsoft and buy it later in the game, thus saving the 3 BPs. |
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Jan 6 2006, 09:18 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
If someone wants to take incompetence 7 times at chargen, that's fine by me. If they get the skillwires in game, that could be even cooler. i like the idea that if you don't like an aspect of yourself, the science of 2070 is there to cater to your consumer needs. It's gone beyond facelifts and liposuction to the point where now you can get your muscles augmented. Bioware is more common, so if you have the cash, they can actually make you smarter. Think of the ad campaigns constantly reinforcing the idea that you aren't good enough the way you are.
Imagine the ultimate social catastrophe. He's ugly, fat, weak, dumb, socially incompetent and (most importantly) rich. With the right amount of cash he can make himself handsome, lean, strong, smart, skilled and (possibly) poor. Anything can be bought in shadowrun. If you're worried that the "free" BP from incompetence is too good, just reinforce the character's negative notoriety. If you took incompetent 7 times, that's 7 notoriety. Mr. Johnson doesn't want you on his run, because everyone knows that you're a nobody who bought his way into the shadows. People like you can be made by taking some guy off the street and shoving some 'ware into him. If you're skillchips were ever taken away, you'd useless. And it certainly doesn't matter if you deserve your bad rep. Maybe you're really good at magic or hacking or whatever. Somehow you got a bum rap, and it will hurt your paycheck. |
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Jan 6 2006, 09:26 PM
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#19
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, having notority is a very good thing on the long run - it gives you street cred to burn. |
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Jan 6 2006, 09:34 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it could be argued that, since the character isn't normally allowed to even roll the attribute linked to the skill in question on tests that require that skill, they only get the dice from the skillsoft.
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Jan 6 2006, 09:50 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
Notoriety doesn't give street cred, it adds to public awareness though. Or did you mean that having more negative notoriety allows you to burn more street cred and therefore keep Public Awareness down due to lack of street cred and notoriety? Because that isn't necessary. It looks like you can burn street cred even when you don't have notoriety. This would give a negative notoriety (which is good). i'm not sure how a negative notoriety factors into public awareness, though. By the numbers, it keeps public awareness down. Does that seem right? i suppose the news prefers to report the darker side of things. Maybe no one wants to hear about "good" shadowrunners. |
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Jan 6 2006, 09:55 PM
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#22
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
True, but negative notority eats dice when intimidating people.
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Jan 6 2006, 10:45 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
If they know who you are, yeah. i suppose i hadn't thought of that.
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Jan 6 2006, 11:03 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Yeah, the notority rules are bizare. If I'm super-incompetent, unlucky, is a drug addict try to look like and elf or ork, has no education, is infirm or freeze in combat :? then people fear me. I mean just think of it: "I Am Bozo! The illiterate, incompetent and cowadly criple. TREMBLE before Me!!" :wobble: I'm not to sure that negative notority actually subtracts dice though. It says notority is added as a bonus to intimidation (p. 258), nothing about potentially being subtracted if it's negative. To further add to the odness, a mass-murdering hugely succesfull runner, can apparently by pure magic tranform himself into somebody that no one has ever heard of. :silly: |
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Jan 7 2006, 01:09 AM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
unfortunately, every bit of the reputation rules is bizarre... :sleepy: |
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