 SR4 timeline, mood continued |
  |
 Jan 6 2006, 08:50 PM
Post
#1
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
i'm not normally one for picking up closed threads, even closed threads that are given explicit permission to be re-opened. this statement, however, strikes me as requiring a response from the pro-have-a-timeline camp. where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the entrance of Hestaby onto the Tir council? where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the re-opening of Tibet? where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the expansion of the PCC? they aren't there, because nothing stops a GM from incorporating those events into their games. these are all events--big events--that occured in the past of the books they are first mentioned in. this is something that game publishers have to do--that game publishers do all the time. it's understood between the publishers and the players/GMs that these events are just as open to inclusion into a game as the "current" events that occur in the books. some groups choose to delve into these events (i'm running a game right now that details the defense of Chico-Oroville from Saito's attempts at expansion), and some don't. creating a timeline would allow groups to include the events of 2065-2070 much, much more easily than simply leaving it up in the air, especially for groups who prefer to stick to the canon timeline as much as possible. as it stands, most canon-oriented groups are simply not going to touch 2065-2070, because anything they do there has a decent chance of coming into conflict with later canon. i know Synner et al have said they plan to leave those years as murky as possible, but i've followed too many continuities (comics, RPGs, etc.) and seen that same promise made and broken too many times to trust it very far. i understand they don't plan to un-murkifiy those years, but at some point, some freelancer is going to come up with this awesome idea that starts in the year 2068... it's not an aspersion on their honesty or intentions, it's simply the fact that creativity doesn't tend to limit itself. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:00 PM
Post
#2
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
They did. It was called Survival of the Fittest.
California mostly. I haven't yet spoken to anyone in California who wasn't to one degree or another pissed off at the conquest of Los Angeles by Pueblo. Tails don't wag dogs, the conquest of LA by Pueblo would go down just like the conquest of England by Scotland. The PCC would get renamed "Greater California", not the other way around. Yeah, the YotC inspired events in the CFS have pissed off a lot of people. It wouldn't surprise me if they got more negative feedback from that than any other move except eliminating variable target numbers (but that also generates a lot of positive feedback, so I'm not sure it counts).
I would think that most canon oriented groups would play in 2070. People who angrily refuse to give up SR3 are by defintion not following current canon so they can jolly well play through 2069 any way they want. -Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:02 PM
Post
#3
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i didn't ask who liked it. i asked who complained that they couldn't play through it. as for canon-oriented groups--the only ones that would possibly want to play through 2065-2070 are the ones sticking to SR3? angrily, even? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:06 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
And maybe, if we continue to look at any in game information provided on the setting as Shadowtalk, then having those years be murky and get filled in backwards is Setting appropriate.
I mean, the world has really just recovered form this matrix crash thing. Even after the infrastructure was back up (Within weeks in some places) there would be a general mistrust of the internet (Sorry, matrix) for a good long time. It might take, Oh, five years for people to start using the thing on the same scale they did before the crash. And there would only be updates on various things as the people who knew got back online. Until then there ould be unsubstantiated rumors, and those few facts you could scrape together would leave large holes in the "What happened?" department. But damn, yes, as a fan and GM I really, Really want a damn timeline for those 5 years. I can buy the bullshit I posted above only for so long. As the people get more comfortable communicating again, eventually what happened will be peiced together. A timeline of events would form, and if they really intend to leave those 5 years murky then they are fucking with my ability to suspend disbeleif, and I'll simply stop[ caring what canon is and go my own route. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:16 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the we-didn't-know approach is workable, and even realistic, but only up to a certain point. i mean, let's say they revist England in SOTA:2075 (or whatever), wherein we find that the popular revolution succeeded. i don't think a major political shift like that is going to pass unnoticed, no matter how much of a shambles the Matrix is in.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:34 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
So, would you pay good money for a SOTA: 2069 book that covered the intervening years? A sort of "hey, the matrix is back up, here's what went down while you were unplugged" book?
Cause I know I would. Pay attention fanpro. Heck, I'd fragging WRITE it for you, if you are too booked with the other releases. He He, Booked. I kill myself. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:36 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you'd better, before somebody else gets to you.
yeah, i'd probably buy SOTA:2069. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:43 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
For SOTA:69--would you buy it if it was written with SR4 rules? I'm not flame baiting, but I don't see FanPro publishing anything in SR3 rules, and I know that MFB has stated that he dislikes SR4.
|
|
|
|
 Jan 6 2006, 09:45 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Give all the SR4 haters a few years of no support for SR3, and they'll all come around. It's not like any of them are going to kick the addiction for new sourcebooks.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:48 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
But a new SOTA book is mostly flavor and fluff anyway. Yes, there are obviously rules, but even die-hard SR3 fans would find 85% of the material immediately useful, and have a grand old time converting the crunchy bits from SR4 to SR3.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 6 2006, 09:55 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not sure if i'm going to be picking up SR4 sourcebooks or not. i'll look them over and decide on a case-by-case basis. rules-oriented books, i'll probably skip; fluff books, i might pick up.
|
|
|
|
| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 7 2006, 12:54 AM
Post
#12
|
|
Guests |
I didn´t like SR3 when it came out (never even got the SR3 core rules ever), but still, I got all of the sb´s, cuz you can allways retrofit the rules. eventualy I used SR2/SR3 rules 50/50 or so. Now I skiped to SR4 entirely (even before the core book was released by house rules). Anyway, I did not allways have use for the rules, but I used the setting. I´m a heavy houseruler anyway.
SOTA69 I´d rip out of the hands of my rpg-dealer as soon as it would be availabel. I allways thought the rules sections in the SOTA books secondary (except genetech in 63 maybe, which I modyfied heavily anyway). But realy, a rough timeline of mayor events for these 5 years will do for me! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 01:04 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Hmm SOTA 2069. Sounds like a great Community Project idea to me.....
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 01:58 AM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
I'm pretty sure that future SR4 source books will include that information, or at least i hope it does. I'm no affiliation with the groups involved with creativaty just a die hard player. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 7 2006, 06:33 AM
Post
#15
|
|||||
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
IIRC, that wasn't SoTF. A lot of crap went down in that adventure set, but the Tir council was not the result. Just a nit pick. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 7 2006, 07:39 AM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'd be fine with that, if it was small shit. But it's not. We're talking about political coups and stuff, here. Big stuff. Important stuff. The Tir situation, for instance? Picture this scenario in real life. You're a professional criminal, operating out of Montreal or something. Your contact calls you, tells you he needs some bodyguard and escort around town work. Your client is George W. Bush. He's on the run, he explains, from the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, etc. Someone else has seized power in a violent rebellious coup, and the United States are no longer under his control. You protect him from Secret Service Agents who try to kill him, as he handles his errand-running around Quebec, before fleeing to Middle Of Nowhereistan under cover of darkness. There's no mention of anything, anywhere, on the news, in papers, on-line, via friends and contacts you've got all over DC, NY, LA, you name it. No one knows anything. No one hears anything about US politics, from anywhere in the world, for five or six years. Until 2012, when someone suddenly mentions in passing that there's been "some new guy" that "somehow" took over the Presidency, "some time" a couple years ago. Because that's what we're getting, as a for instance, with the Tir thing. Only my write up, just now, was longer, I think, than the one the Tir got in Sota '64. And it's how I feel about Sota '64 as a whole. We got just enough info to make us want to run with some really cool shit. But not enough info to let us run with it, and stay canon. Understand the frustration? It's like a cat eyeing a caged-in bird, or a fish in a tank that's got a lid, y'know? |
||
|
|
|
||
| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 7 2006, 06:38 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Guests |
Am I doing a serious faux pass by saying "I agree with Critias"?
Well, I´ll do anyway. Not that I didn´t like the SOTA books. But the News section was realy only usefull after some more sbs. It was kind of cool crunching these hints but I did nothing with them in my group. I don´t want the authors to reveal every dark secret of these 5 years on the spot. But as C sayed, I´d like to know the most ovious basics, like is Tir still a feudal neo-Aristocracy, military dictatorship, real democracy? No statement about who the new Princes, the Dictator, the President are and no need to know who is the power bihind these changes. Just the global headlines. Thats what I´m seriouslymissing! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2006, 08:37 PM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 17-September 05 Member No.: 7,754 |
Imagine that if England was devastated by earthquakes and flooding and had collapsed into near-anarchy. 60-70% of the Greater London Area has been totally destroyed because the flood barriers failed, and the River Thames has become Lake Thames. If people in the highlands of Scotland reorganized themselves into a government and re-established their government in England, the results wouldn't necessarily be called the United Kingdom or Britain. That being said, it's pretty clear from Shadows of North America that people in LA let themselves get absorbed by the PCC, rather than get conquered by Aztlan. It was in effect, bloodless and the result of consent. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 8 2006, 06:48 AM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
No, the thing is that Critias is often right. You may be thinking of Conspir-I-see, whom, for some reason, I often draw parallels too w/ Crit. Maybe because they're both right more often than I'm comfortable with. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 8 2006, 01:06 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
What I want is a state of play document, maybe half a page at most giving a status report on each major nation (UCAS, CAS, Pueblo, Sioux, both Tir's, the UK, Germany, Japan) and a little about the others. maybe a web document, to give us the shape of whats going down in the world. Tir Tairngire and UK are my biggies actually at the mo. maybe do one area every couple of weeks?
I at least hope for such an overview of nearby areas for HK and Seattle in Runner havens. |
|
|
|
| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 8 2006, 04:00 PM
Post
#21
|
||
|
Guests |
I don´t just hope, but I´m counting on this! Even if it stays a bit murky. I just re-read the page In SR4 on the years 65-70, just to be sure. There realy isn´t much info in there, even combined with SF, which I took another quick look at. Only the corps are detailed a litle more. About the TirT. it only states, they got hit hard by the New Revolution (or maybe Rinelle if thats not the same) and underwent major changes. BTW which Party did Coloton with in 68? I´d suspect the Republicans (can you say "Empowerment Coalition" three times fast in a row ;) ). I´d allso like to have a Name and Party of this corp-puppet-prez elected in 65 after the crash! Ophis proposal would be great, can we hope fore something like this? It could allso be done as a comunity project in the hopes that staff and authors would addopt the major events ore intervene if it loses the trail too much. But this would include a lot of spoilers, since we´d have to discuss the info given yet, including the adventureseeds from SF and some older books! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 8 2006, 05:49 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Since when are the Tirs major nations? There are 3.7 Million people in Tir na nOg. The country has less economic and political importance than San Diego, AZT or Phoenix, PCC. It's gotten a whole lot of ink and fan boy attention, but it's never been an important area. Ever.
The actual effect on Shadowrunners and the world economy of the theocratic republic of Tir na nOg is as close to zero as a nation in Europe could possibly be. Less people than a moderate-sized city in North America, isolationist in the extreme, and rather short on exportable natural resources (their only resources of note are magical power sites that outsiders can't even use). Honestly, who gives a crap what happens in the Tir? I'm much more concerned about the fact that we have actual mega cities that have never been even mentioned or placed on a Shadowrun Map. What's the dealio in Johannesburg or Lagos? Unlike the goings-on in a minor European Elven country club, that's actually important. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Jan 8 2006, 06:09 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Tir Tairngire is "important" for two reasons: firstly, because it's so close to Seattle it's very, very, likely to affect it's neighbor (along with being close to so much other hyperdetailed stuff up and down the West Coast). And secondly, simply because it's such a "fanboy paradise" or whatever you called it, and because it has gotten so much ink. They focus on it, and focus on it, and focus on it -- and then suddenly the one constant of the place (it's High Prince) gets ousted, and no one knows anything about how and why.
You can't give something that much attention for that long, and then suddenly clam up about it, and not expect it to impact some games. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 8 2006, 09:29 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Well, the AGS add-on chapter of the German System Failure contains a "leaked internal S-K memo" that speculates (from a 2065 POV) about future changes in Germany caused or catalysed by Crash 2.0 (I'm looking forward to seeing which of these changes actually will be present in SR4's AGS). BTW, for those interested in euro-corporations: IFMU is no more! They went bankrupt and got sold piece by piece (e.g. IFMU Robotik now belongs to AT&T which in turn belongs to S-K). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 9 2006, 12:04 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
No, as was said in another thread, it's not a faux pas to agree with Critias. For more info on why Tir Tairngire has so much written about it, see also: Immortal Elves and the Earthdawn tie-ins. Tir Tairngire has, and probably always will remain, relatively irrelevant in my games except for its' status as a 'hostile nation' with regards to the California Free State. The things that bugged me about the nation way back when it was first written up are as follows: 1) The near-instantaneous 'superpower' status it seemed to hold. The nation was wealthy beyond any reasonable measure, and was self-sustaining enough to have an economic policy I can only describe as 'suicidal' without any real way to support that policy. I can only hint to you the abject glee I felt when I read its' economy had tanked in-canon and they'd been forced to open their borders. 2) Its' military strength was such that rolling over California was like unto the US government deciding it wanted to invade some banana republic somewhere. That particular relation always struck me as ridiculous, primarily because the population of California should be between 3-5 times that of the Tir, as well as having equivalent military hardware and training. 3) Techno-magical superiority. I can buy that a nation founded by a bunch of immortals who know Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know can have magical superiority. That's really fine with me. But suddenly being onthe bleeding edge of technology when compared to the megacorps? That I have a hard time buying, especially when corporations like Telestrian Industries are the equivalent of a backwoods research division for the AAA corps. My solution to this problem was this: Tir Tairngire's political and social structure is pretty much what the book said it was. However, their military, technological, and economic power is all a sham, because their leaders are running a oligarchal society with absolute control of the media, and they're Elves. I.E. they're extremely good liars. The Tir wasn't as shiny or special as outsiders thought - it was just a really good PR campaign. Because if people think you can challenge them on a military or economic level, they're much less inclined to actually attack you. Tir na nOg has always been relatively irrelevant, save for when Brahne says something in a sourcebook - and even then, it's pretty irrelevant. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 14th September 2025 - 09:25 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.