Hacking+Logic Tests?, Test mentioned but not used. Options

[Erebus]

On Page223. Under "Using Hacking Skill"

"When you are directly interacting with a device, make Hacking Tests using Hacking
skill + Logic. If you are utilizing a hacking program, makes tests using Hacking skill + program rating."

What exactly does that mean since there are no Hacking Tests listed in the BBB without programs? Does that mean I can use Logic if I don't have a program? Or are there actually hacking tests that can be done without programs? Do we have to wait for Unwired to find out?

I'm really liking SR4 for its streamlining, but I'm starting to bang my head against the wall because of some of the holes... Is this normal?

[Jaid]

Holes in the rules of shadowrun? yes, that's normal.

holes in the rules of RPGs in general? that's normal too.

holes in the rules of just about every single game that has ever existed? yes, that's pretty normal too.

that being said, IMO SR4 has more than it's fair share of said holes.

but whatever, i suppose i would allow hacking + logic if you are directly trying to affect the device, and if there wasn't a program to cover it (to represent you coding on the fly... horribly unrealistic, but like i care). basically, i would use it to reflect your ability to just grab various functions you've written, cobble them together, and do stuff with it. i wouldn't allow it to duplicate anything an already existing program could do, it would basically be used only when you want to do something specific that just isn't covered elsewhere.

that being said, i can't think of any such situations... so i don't consider it likely to see much use. still, it's nice to have a backup plan to cover the stuff you didn't think of...

[Guest_MK Ultra_*]

[BishopMcQ]

There are times when programs cannot help you (such as when you are logged in legitimately). Beyond that, I'd say that the rule on p. 223 is effectively stating that you can replace Logic with the appropriate program and vice versa.

There has been an archetype for a Logic 2 Hacker floating around, because Logic is not often used for Hacking. I'd say that this rule was put in place to counter that archetype. Build a high logic hacker (which can exceed the rating of your commlink) and you don't have to worry about not having every program prepped for every situation.

Programs that I as a hacker would like to have on at all times:
Stealth, BioFeedback, Analyze, Browse, Armor and ECCM

With that load, presuming I'm running the best of the best available (Caliban with Navi), I'm already suffering response loss due to my over abundance of programs. If I have to add Exploit, Spoof, Defuse, etc then I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I get into cyber-combat.

Additionally there may be times when you don't want any incriminating evidence on your commlink and having a full payload of hacker programs is going to raise a lot of suspicions.

[BishopMcQ]

Rr-reading through the wireless world, it looks like the programs you REALLY need are the ones that don't use Hacking. This means your Attack (Cyber-combat) program should be cutting edge, as well as your common-use programs.

Additionally I can see heated interactions between hackers who are naturally good at what they do (High Logic and Hacking) and those who "buy" their prowess through programs.

[Space Ghost]

This sounds wrong. Isn't it too easy to max out your logic and add bioware to further bring it up? What about technomancers? Do they need complex forms at all?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If you lack the program, you can't do anything you would need a program for.

Every Skill needs an Attribute, so Hacking has Logic - the situations those rules apply to are not yet specified and up to the GM.

[mintcar]

Yes. You can NOT replace a program with Logic, that has been officially stated I´m sure. The situations were you would use hacking + logic would be similar to the situations were you would use computer + logic. Mostly situations were the rules do not require you to make a test, but the GM wants you to make one anyway. Maybe to change some properties for a device. Anything that involves directly manipulating settings that are meant to be changable, but require computer knowledge to manipulate. Not sure why the skill is Hacking for devices and Computer for nodes, though.

[Serbitar]

SHP

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Spammer.

[BishopMcQ]

RvD/Mintcar--I'm not saying that I agree with the rule, but it does appear to be what the rule says in the strictest sense. The rule also seems to throw a wrench in the plan for a Logic 2 Hacker.

As a GM, I would probably house rule it to say that the rating of your program caps the number of successes that you can get (Similar to force of spells) Without the appropriate program, apply a defaulting modifier (-1 Dice) and set the maximum number of successes at 1.

Otherwise, it sounds like a question for ShadowFAQ or we wait until Unwired.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The rule does not say 'you can hack without programs'.

[mintcar]

[BishopMcQ]

[BishopMcQ]

Mintcar--I'll agree with that.

[Gondor]

Examples of when I would allow a player to use Logic + Hacking.

What countermeasures, and/or security measures can I expect from this brand of electronic device?

From what I have seen, how long do I estimate it will take for that agent to track my meat body?

Is an attack program of 4 considered high end for a hacker in this hacker's club?

[Erebus]

I guess maybe the problem I have with this, is that professionally I'm a network engineer.

And while scripts simply automate alot of what I do, I can do everything without them using just telnet/traceroute/ping and a handful of others.

When I used to deal with security for a teir 1 network service provider, I used to have to deal with script kiddies all the time. So I can easily see hacking go either way, with or without programs... in the end though its the one with the knowledge to do things without the programs who'll win out in the end everytime....

Script Kiddies to me are usually low hacking or default hacking with high programs.. they can do what their programs do for them, and nothing else. Wheras someone with true networking knowledge not only understands whats going on, but knows how best to apply it in new and creative ways.

And while we're on it, I can honestly say Intuition could just as easily be the linked attribute for Hacking as well as Logic.

I really liked the ideas behind SR3's Matrix rules as they were actually very realistic in regards to how networks work. I'm just hoping that SR4 doesn't lose touch with reality and while the current wireless and AR world is great, I'm hoping Unwired covers wired networks as well and fills in all the gaps that are currently in the BBB.

[mintcar]

Even though I don´t do programing myself, I had similar objections when talking to Synner about it. Many others with more experience came with objections like that too. The thing is that hacking in SR3 and further back also had gear mean more for your success than your skill and talent. Then it was the cyberdeck that was all important, now it´s programs. If anything, your own skill as a hacker has more impact in this edition. Programs and commlinks are not that expensive or hard to come by. The skills needed to be a good hacker are more numerous now though, so that´s the new point of reference, really.

Because of unlimited storage your entire program suite could be fit in an RFID tag. And it could be stored in several copies in untracable online storage all over the net. Your commlink could easily be replaced if it was lost. Even if you had to borrow the street sam´s for a quick hack, you could load your own OS, firewall and programs and the only setback would be lousy response and signal. All in all I´d say experienced hackers will have a much easier time keeping their edge against hot shots than the deckers of old, who had it all riding on that Fairlight Excalibur they managed to steal one time.

I think they´re telling us that hacking without programs is not possible anymore because of the extreme speeds of hacking. As in previous editions, we are told the reason for the extreme speeds you can operate at in the matrix is that the persona does a lot of the work on it´s own.

If you want to make Logic an important attribute for hackers in your game as a GM: Try increasing the bennefits of writing your own programs. Either by making ready made programs hard to come by in high ratings, or by giving out some kind of home crafted bonus or something. The later would be advisable I think, because it adresses the issue of copied programs aswell. Nobody knows your software as you do, so you´re the only one that gets a bonus.

[Guest_MK Ultra_*]

I´d simply use SOTA rules to get this effect. For all of the shelfe progs, ther will be customized countermesures in no time, so the prog rating will fade realy fast. This means much money to be spend on updates (you´d only get for free the progs that are so much behind SOTA that there effective rating is 0) but Firewall updates should be quiet cheap to come by. This way a real SOTA Hacker would need Logic and Software, to stay that way ore throw out a lot of money, to get along for just another week or two.

Q to Erebus: I´d imagin hacking without the specialized progs will be real slow (or at least not as fast as with the tools), just as mc suggested, am I right?

[Erebus]

MK Ultra: I'm really refering to network hacking... though most server based hacking is the same. For Server based hacking its usually a matter of either: using an exploit of the OS or other application thats on the box, or getting the box to run something under a particular user that shouldn't run it by messing with various permissions.

If a device has a hole, and you know how to exploit it, its fairly quick. The problem is: determining which holes a device has, thats where the scripts come in handy, as you can quickly run through various exploits... On the other hand, some exploits can be fairly complicated and are automated through scripts.

Most hacking tools out there are just combinations of these. All they ask for is an IP address or hostname, and they run though various exploits attempting to h4x0r the box. Script Kiddies download these tools and use them as Hammers. "Real" black Hat Hackers(crackers, whatever) generally do something similar to the slow and sure method in SR4. They probe their intended target to find out what OS its running and what apps, then run through the various exploits meant to do what they need to. One has a real understanding of whats going on, and one just presses the big red button. Script Kiddies are generally limited to targets of opportunity as they can only hack sites their tools work on, whereas those with the knowledge of how those tools work aren't limited by their tools.


Alot of the virus' that are out today are actually just self-propogating tools to put cracks in nodes that can be exploited later. Others are actually tools of the attack themselves:

Code Red was a big one back in 2001, which basically used an existing hole in IIS to propogate itself. Basically it was setup so that 90% of the time it would try to replicate itself, and then at a particular time all the infected hosts would then attempt to attack the White House's webpage. Due to the way it was written it was fairly easy to alleviate the actual attack on the White House, but the problem Code Red had was that it propogated itself too well. Basically, it caused so much network traffic during propogation that it was easy to track down who was infected....

[mintcar]

By the way you´re describing it it seems pretty easy to argue the need for hacking programs in the year 2070. Especially as a kid with no skill will be severely hampered by their inability under this system.