Increase (Attribute) Spell overpowered? Options

[blalien]

I'm a complete Shadowrun newbie, and I'm going to be starting a 4ed campaign for a bunch of other Shadowrun newbies later this month. I've been reading the rulebook cover to cover, and there's one thing that I don't quite get. (actually a lot of things, but anyway...) It seems like a very simple matter for a mage with the Increase (Attribute) spell to boost all eight attributes for each character permanently, with the only obstacle being the drain damage. Am I missing something here, or is this just a really easy way for a mage to make friends?

[Squinky]

Every sustained spell incurs a dice penalty (2?) kinda like wound modifiers. You can get a focus to sustain them for you, but you are limited to how many focuses you can have by logic(?) or one of the mental attributes.

I think maybe spirits can sustain a spell for you too, but it would be pretty hard to boost them all, and on multiple characters. Another thing, is they don't work with cyber augmentations and some other magic augmentations, so the sammy with Muscle toner will get no benefit from an agility spell....

[blalien]

Oh... I made the mistake of assuming that any sustained spell could be made permanent. Then again, am I right in saying that with the Quickening metamagic ability and a lot of spare karma, you could indeed pull this off?

[nick012000]

If you had lots of spare Karma, yes.

But that's Karma you could spend on other things, like increasing your Magic, initiating, learning new spells, bonding foci, etc. Magicians are Karma hogs.

[Sphynx]

Squinky, Improved Attribute CAN be stacked with cyber augmentation in the new edition. Your Force just has to be higher than the 'augmented' attribute now. So, casting Improved Agility on an Elf with Muscle Toners of 4 on a base 8 Agility requires a grade 6 initiate to cast it at Force 12 without taking 10P Drain.

With Quickened Karma you could indeed pull it off, and yes, as in 3rd edition, it can be a real power-boost. However, hope you don't have bad-luck walking through a ward or barrier, because karma spent on quickening doesn't come back.

Sphynx

[Azralon]

Don't forget that each attribute requires a separate Increase spell. Increase Body, Increase Agility, and so forth. So you'd have to know 8 spells, which is another karmic (or BP) expense to consider.

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

Don't forget that augmented attribute max is the absolute max now.
So you could cast that improved ability on the elf listed below and for all of that drain get a sum total of 0 net benefit.
8 Agility max = 12 Augmented Max.
Doesn't matter how you get the +4, it counts towards the max.

So overall it is much more balanced than the quickened increase attribute spells used to be.

[Sphynx]

While that does sound 'right', could you give me a page reference, or an errata reference where it says that? I can't find it anywhere....

Sphynx

[Darkness]

[blalien]

Oy, so instead of the spell being overpowered it's nearly useless. Thanks for the info, that clears up a lot.

[Azralon]

Negatory, not useless (and, to reiterate, not just one spell either).

Slap a Force 6 Increase Charisma on your faceman some time while you wait in the car, sustaining the spell for him. Get two Force 4ish sustaining foci and lock in Increase Willpower and Increase (your tradition's special attribute) to get more drain countermeasures. Are you a wussy mage with a Body of 2? Lock in Increase Body! Blah blah blah.

No, it's not useless; it just takes some appropriate management like everything else.

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

On the other hand, when you run into a Dragon who has cast several high F high karma quickened Increased attribute spells or the IE that has done the same, it starts to seem much scarier.

It is really more useful for the GM than for the players, though Increased Strength has it's uses (going from S3 - S9 and then busting the door) or Increased Willpower (which you can't really get from any other method.)

[Jaid]

[blalien]

Hmm, is there any way to cast spells you haven't learned, like, with scrolls or something?

[milspec]

[Jaid]

hmmm... i see... well, that does make it at least a little bit better.

that being said, the best faces will naturally have higher charisma than 6... but then again, if you're starting off with the best face in your party, there's something a little weird going on :P

still, it isn't all that expensive for an elf to pull off a 7 charisma at chargen. which just adds to the pain...

[Azralon]

Don't worry, Jaid. Examples are typically expressed in extremes to better illustrate their points. Hyperbole is the stuff of forums, but yes, I did underbid with the mere human maximum Charisma.

[Sphynx]

[PlatonicPimp]

Though why not? I mean, you could probably make some sort of focus that would help with that. It's have to be pretty espensive so that players don't choose them over getting spells all the time, but the karma cost to bond would have to be less than the Karma cost to learn the spell. And perhaps, unlike player learned spells, the spell is always cast at the rating of the focus.

It's not canon, but It could be workable. In order to make it so, you have to have it be less expensive Karma wise than just learning the spell, but very expensive cash wise so that players don't get every spell in focus form. Balance it right and you have a decent choice for the karma-hungry mage to consider.

[Darkness]

[Azralon]

Heck yeah, the reusable anchored foci were great for the utility spells. The expendables were handy for "healing potions" and such to be issued to your teammates.

It was another karma sink, of course, but still darn handy.