 Edge cap modifire?, Overspecialize and you breed in weakness |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
 Jan 11 2006, 10:51 PM
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#1
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When the first anouncement on Edge was out, it remindet me of Ghost in the Shell. The scene when the former Cop (Togusa, not Ishikawa as I falsely recalled) askes the Cybermajor (Kusanagi) why she requested him for her team. Very shortened, her answer was "overspecialize, and you breed in weekness". She sayed that all of her Team being cybered up to the scalp made them predictable, so she mixed in an allmost uncybered police man. Since the first anouncement, it got struck with the idea, that uncybered mundanes should be able to have higher Edge then cybered and moyoed chars. While this is somehow the case with Magic, since it eats up much Karma, there is nothing that hinders a chunk of metal from having max. Edge. I have to ad, that my interpretation of Edge (as well as Karma Pool in previous editions) is, that it is more experiance and training than luck and spiritsī blessing. So Iīm serioucly toying with the idea to lower the Edge cap in relation to gaining more moyo, resonance or implants. My current working model is, to lower the Edge cap by: Magic/2 Resonance/2 Essenceloss*/4 *before adjusting it due to customization and before deviding the lower loss from cyber/bio by 2. This should not lower the current Edge-Attribute, as long as it isnīt higher then the new cap. Otherwise it would be a bit too hard. I think this is fair and it reflects, that people who have some very defined and powerfull means, tend to be less versatile in there tactics and less on thair toes. When you can handel allmost everything you encounter with your moyo, res or implants, you will slowly start being less "on Edge", becaus you donīt need to, mostly. On the other hand, if you are a nonimplanted mundane, youīd better have a damn high Edge and be attentive bordering to paranoia, for this one moment, when your boosted friends canīt save your ass. So, what do you think about this? Edit: Sorry azralon, I couldnīt find the original site, were I read wat you commented and I was too lazy, too write up a new text and search out my copy of GitS to quote the compleat conversation. I may eventually redeam myselfe.. |
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Jan 11 2006, 10:57 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Heathen! Miscreant! |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 11 2006, 11:02 PM
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#3
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Well DEUS may eraze my SINns. The psychotropic programming is strong but the mind is weak. But I promis, Iīll post the full conversation eventually! Allso, I made some cosmetic modifications to my original post, doesnīt that count for some MP of my Soul to be saved?
Edit: Does that mean, you wont participate in this anymore :( |
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Jan 11 2006, 11:21 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
I like it. Though I'd change your formulae a bit, mostly because Essence loss is so difficult to calculate via your system there.
So how's this: Lower the edge cap by 2 for having a magic attribute at all. Same with Resonance. Lower it by essence loss, round down. Therefore if you just have a datajack no problem. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 11 2006, 11:27 PM
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#5
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Yea, Your probably right about the cyber. I just wanted to keep the logic, cuz more implants, that are better integrated in your system, shouldnīt make you less eliant on them. But I realize, that this may be a bit to complicated.
For the Magic and Resonance its the same, I wanted ubermages and matrixmasters to be less on edge than little sprite kidies and adepts that have only astral perception. |
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Jan 12 2006, 12:15 AM
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#6
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
As I said when this was brought up in the other thread, I think it's a really neat idea.
I agree that you should probably just use essence in your formula instead of your previous (weird) formula. If you need to rationalize it, figure it has something to do with gear being more smoothly integrated into their system and throwing off their edge less. Street Sams are looking at less than six points of essence loss, ever, absolute maximum. What about the Mages and Technomancers? Are you subtracting based on the initiated/submerged stat, or just the base? I could see arguments either way. On the one hand, you're trying to reduce edge based on other abilities, but this allows them to reduce their edge max to zero (theoretically) and that's not fun. I think you should only base the loss on the base stat, and initiation and submersion are free. Rationalize it as, base stats are raw inborn power, which throws off your edge, but initiation is learning to increase your natural ability and work with it more effectively, so no edge penalty. Thoughts? |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 12 2006, 12:24 AM
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#7
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Zeroing Edge was a problem I was allso worrying about. But Iīm thinking of a compromize.
What about Edge cap -1 for Magic and Resonance 1 to 3 -2 for Magic and Resonance 4 to 6 -3 for Magic and Resonance 7+ -Essence loss / 2 |
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Jan 12 2006, 12:27 AM
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I like it.
Consider a slight buffer for those with negligible abilities: 0 for Magic and Resonance 1 -1 for Magic and Resonance 2 to 4 -2 for Magic and Resonance 5 to 7 -3 for Magic and Resonance 8+ -Essence loss / 2 (round loss down, so the datajack is free) |
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Jan 12 2006, 12:40 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
i like the free datajack idea. Togusa (the ex-cop) had a little headware, so it fits with GitS too. Ishikawa is the uber-hacker guy, though it shows more in the comic and the tv show than the original movie.
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Jan 12 2006, 12:48 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
it seems logical to lump essence spent into the same plan as magic and resonance. It would simplify things quite a bit. so something like: 0 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 1 -1 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 2 to 4 -2 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 5 to 7 -3 for Magic, Essence Spent and Resonance 8+ One problem that could occur is mages with cyber, if you pick up 6 Magic and spend 2 on cyber wares, you'd have a -3 penalty.. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 12 2006, 12:50 AM
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#11
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Ah, thanks Ghost, will edit that ;) .
I allso think the Essence loss should be rounded down for this purpose, so you could have allmost 2 points worth of implants without reducing the Edge cap. Edit: @ Lagomorph I intended awakened with implants to reduce the edgecap twice ;) Not much Edge for those Aleph Fraggers :D |
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Jan 12 2006, 01:03 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Roger that :D |
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Jan 12 2006, 01:06 AM
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#13
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So someone totally cybered to the gills is losing 2 off their max edge. Does that seem in-line with what you were aiming for, or are they getting off light, having a smaller maximum penalty than the mages and technos?
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Jan 12 2006, 01:30 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
If someone loses edge, they will lose magic too, and thus reduce the amount of edge they lose from magic.
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Jan 12 2006, 03:10 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
The uncybered mundane is already a weak archetype, and your houserule suggestion won't really change that. What it will do is majorly nerf cybergoons out of medium-term character advancement.
Cybergoons already have trouble finding effective things to do with karma, and preventing them from raising their edge attribute will just take away one of their best paths of advancement. |
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Jan 12 2006, 04:24 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Indeed.
Instead of doing this, why not -increase- the cap for Unaugmented or Nonawakened characters? Or, allow total mundanes to do other things with Edge. |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:45 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
Or reward the roleplay concious player for his decision not to optimize. Whoah, crazy, I know!
edit: Because I luv ya... "If we all reacted the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation. What's true for the group is also true for the individual. It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death." |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Jan 12 2006, 11:39 AM
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#18
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Oh Hazaku, you are so fantastic! DEUS shell reward you for this, you are sure to be JackBNimbeled! :notworthy:
@Gothig Rose and Chandon Yea, I was thinking about raising the Edge cap after CharGen to its augmented maximum, since you canīt boost it anyway (or can you?)! Allso, the maximum penalty for the Cyborgs is at least 1 less then that for submerged TMs and initiates with R/M above 6 @Platonic Pimp I canīt quiet catch what you are meaning :( |
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Jan 12 2006, 03:14 PM
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#19
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I was wondering about that. Edge has an augmented maximum anywhere from 9 to 12 (if you're human with exceptional attribute), even though there is nothing that can augment edge, right? Weird.
Well, maybe not. Magic and Resonance are also attributes, and they don't have an augmented maximum, right? Ugh. I understand the sentiment about not nerfing character types. I could see raising the edge cap for uncybered mundanes, but one way or another I think it'd be nice if there was SOME way to make an uncybered mundane without being laughed away from the gaming table. I don't expect for uncybered mundanes to compete with sams or mages, or to be as good, but it'd be nice if they could keep up a little. |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:34 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Whereas, I am of the opinion that an uncybered mundane should suck. If everyone rocks out of the box, why would you bother augmenting yourself? Why depattern yourself with chunks of plastic and metal if you can be just as good without them? |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:44 PM
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#21
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
If you're going to quote me, at least read my quote. To requote myself:
An uncybered mundane should not, repeat NOT be as good as a sam or a magician. All I'm saying is I want them to be good enough to be playable. Uncybered mundanes are, IMO, not realistically playable as they are. |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:47 PM
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#22
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Why? They have more points to spend on edge and skills. |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:52 PM
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#23
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Is that enough, do you think? Really? They might have more edge. They certainly will have more points to throw around. In the long run they won't have more edge than anyone else, of course. They'll have worse attributes, having spent the same 50% as everyone else, but without any means to increase them beyond that.
They'll have more diverse skills, but they won't be able to compete with anyone else in their forte. They have the same skill caps as anyone else, without modifiers. I just don't see spending the extra BP on skills as really helping anything. Now, if an uncybered mundane were able to put those extra points into attributes, maybe you'd have something. I don't know, maybe they are realistically playable, I just don't see it. |
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Jan 12 2006, 05:59 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. |
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Jan 12 2006, 06:06 PM
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#25
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Uncybered characters do not have to stay that way. They have a huge advangage in more potential and choices in their development.
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