Star Wars D20 - Should I give in?

Star Wars D20 - Should I give in?, And what are your opinions?

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Oct 3 2003, 10:38 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	I currently own the old West End Games Star Wars RPG. I haven't played it much but have recently broken it out and got interested in running a game. I have a few odds and sods of game books and just bought the PLanets Collection and Galaxy Guide to Bespin and Yavin off Ebay. However I have also considered teh Star Wars D20 stuff, mainly because stuff is easier to find and more importantly teh info is more up to date and covers the Rise of the Empire era of the prequels. I do have some reservations however: I feel like I am being wasteful as I have a perfectly good Star Wars RPG book that has rarely been used. I have not tried much of the D20 system, but from what I did I wasn't impressed mainly due to: a) The linear nature of the die roll, I prefer more consistant results where the dice form more of a bell curve (i.e. really high or really low rolls are possible, but are not as probable as slight pluses or minuses). D20 seems to give an equal chance to roll a 1 or a 20 as a 10 (the "average" roll). b) Being overwhelmed by the numerous classes and feats. With something like SR, who know how a character works, how they improve skills etc because they all do it the same. Yes, there are some pieces of gear or spells that need to be reviewed but it is generally the same. With D20 I worry that I would have to keep looking up what increases each specific class gets on achieving a new level. The character development rules seem to have specifics for each class. There also seem to be a huge list of feats that have particular ways of working - they are not like SR skills where you always know its a matter of rolling a number of dice equal to the skill rating vs a TN. I guess feats could be better equated to Edges and Flaws, but Feats seem to have an even bigger list. c) Being constrained by classes. The first time I played AD&D I was creating a character and stated I wanted a youthful, athletic lad who was a bit naive. Not particularly tough (skinny in fact) but agile. My reply from the guy helping me was "Well, the best class for you would be Thief then". I wasn't impressed with this, especially as other players on hearing I was using the Thief class, assumed I was actually a criminal. What are the Star Wars classes like - are they too restrictive? I don't want to be constrained by a limited number of classes, but then again I don't want to have to review loads of different classes to see if any are suitable (see being overwhelmed by classes above). With SR its easy - you can do what you like, there are no restrictions on attributes or skills based upon profession, only on race (and then only on attributes). d) I am a completionist, if I buy Star Wars D20, I would want to buy all the books, and from what I understand they are more expensive than other game books (about £26 for basic book and £20 for supplements, compared to Shadowrun's £12 or £15 for source books). I am also worried by the early revisions - already the core book has been revised, and apparently the Living Force char gen special rules are out of date because of it. In light of the D&D 3.5 rehashes I am worried I am going to buy this book and then next year when EpIII comes out I will feel obliged to buy another one! I am tempted to give in, buy the stuff and then decide which system to use it with. At least if I understand the D20 Star Wars rules I can convert to D6 (although The Rebellion has done much of that hard work!) and use the background info. Learning the D20 rules for Star Wars will also make it easier if I ever want to play in a game run by someone else, or any other D20 game for that matter. Anyway, enough of my waffling - any opinions, advice, or clarifications?

Adam

Oct 3 2003, 02:02 PM

Post #2

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I'm currently playing in a Star Wars d20 [Revised Edition] game.

QUOTE

a) The linear nature of the die roll, I prefer more consistant results where the dice form more of a bell curve (i.e. really high or really low rolls are possible, but are not as probable as slight pluses or minuses). D20 seems to give an equal chance to roll a 1 or a 20 as a 10 (the "average" roll).

True. You could probably house rule around it [2d10, for example] but I've never experimented with doing so.

QUOTE

b) Being overwhelmed by the numerous classes and feats. With something like SR, who know how a character works, how they improve skills etc because they all do it the same. Yes, there are some pieces of gear or spells that need to be reviewed but it is generally the same. With D20 I worry that I would have to keep looking up what increases each specific class gets on achieving a new level. The character development rules seem to have specifics for each class.

Each race and class has about a half page of abilities and suchlike, some that they get at chargen, some that they only get when reaching a certain level. As a player, all I worry about is what relates to my character.

QUOTE

There also seem to be a huge list of feats that have particular ways of working - they are not like SR skills where you always know its a matter of rolling a number of dice equal to the skill rating vs a TN. I guess feats could be better equated to Edges and Flaws, but Feats seem to have an even bigger list.

Feats are just rules that allow you to break the other rules on occassion. As a player, I worry about what feats I have. As a GM, get it into the players head that /they/ are responsible for saying "Oh, I get a +2 bonus to this because of X feat."

I certainly haven't memorized all the feats in the game; just the ones important to my character.

QUOTE

c) Being constrained by classes. The first time I played AD&D I was creating a character and stated I wanted a youthful, athletic lad who was a bit naive. Not particularly tough (skinny in fact) but agile. My reply from the guy helping me was "Well, the best class for you would be Thief then". I wasn't impressed with this, especially as other players on hearing I was using the Thief class, assumed I was actually a criminal. What are the Star Wars classes like - are they too restrictive? I don't want to be constrained by a limited number of classes, but then again I don't want to have to review loads of different classes to see if any are suitable (see being overwhelmed by classes above). With SR its easy - you can do what you like, there are no restrictions on attributes or skills based upon profession, only on race (and then only on attributes).

The classes in Star Wars are pretty flexible, IMO. I don't have the book handy, but there aren't that many of them and they hit all the standard archetypes pretty well. There's further classes and prestige classes in other supplements, also.

QUOTE

d) I am a completionist, if I buy Star Wars D20, I would want to buy all the books, and from what I understand they are more expensive than other game books (about £26 for basic book and £20 for supplements, compared to Shadowrun's £12 or £15 for source books). I am also worried by the early revisions - already the core book has been revised, and apparently the Living Force char gen special rules are out of date because of it. In light of the D&D 3.5 rehashes I am worried I am going to buy this book and then next year when EpIII comes out I will feel obliged to buy another one!

Star Wars books are pricier than most RPG books; from what I've seen of them, they're definately not overpriced, though. As for another revision when EpIII comes out... well, I'd bet on it, but I don't think it will be such a drastic revisision as the first one.

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Oct 3 2003, 02:36 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	Much obliged Adam. To be honest I will likely want to GM the game so I will want to get my head around all the feats that will relate (or could relate) to my player's characters. The D6 system is not without its flaws either, e.g. having to add up loads of die results, no staging up of damage etc, so maybe I will jsut bite the bullet.

Siege View Member Profile	Oct 3 2003, 02:56 PM Post #4
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	I much preferred the d6 system to the d20. The class system, hit points in general and levels all conspire to my innate dislike of d20 in general. With the d6, it was much more free-form and limited primarily by the player's imagination. Just to note: d20 doesn't have a staging rule either. If you want to add staging to d6, add an extra +1 (or die) of damage for every 5 points over the "to hit" roll. I did the same thing in d20 (+1 damage for every point over the "to hit" roll) and limited the hitpoints to the old Cthulhu system (Str + Con /2). It certainly changed the player's perspective on ignoring missile fire. -Siege

DigitalMage

Oct 3 2003, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE (Siege)

The class system, hit points in general and levels all conspire to my innate dislike of d20 in general.

<snip>

I did the same thing in d20 (+1 damage for every point over the "to hit" roll) and limited the hitpoints to the old Cthulhu system (Str + Con /2). It certainly changed the player's perspective on ignoring missile fire.

I've just been reading a load of reviews of teh game and now have mixed views - though I am heading towards a "get it" because the worst reviews were against the original version and some of the things have been fixed by the Revised version.

Classes and wildly differing Hit POints don't bother me so much with Star Wars as it isn't meant to be realistic, instead characters like Han should expect to be able to go charging off after a load of storm troopers without too much fear of death. D20 is maybe more cinematic in that way.

I am worried by the fact that D20 still seems to need gobs load of dice to be rolled at some point e.g. a high level Jedi using a force point may have to roll 6 dice and add to the D20 roll (that is worse than the D6 system! especially as when it isn't D6 you are rolling loads of you're going to have to keep rerolling the same bloody die!).

Oh well, I will probably rarely get to play it anway.

Any more views?

Darth Mikey

Oct 3 2003, 04:21 PM

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QUOTE (DigitalMage)

Anyway, enough of my waffling - any opinions, advice, or clarifications?

Okay, I am currently running a Star Wars D20 campaign so, maybe I can offer some input.

First off, yes, the books are expensive. Some are also out of print, so they may also be hard to find. The only book I regret buying is the "Secrets of Naboo" book, which is just a waste of paper. All of the other books that I own are well done. There are lots of color photos and art, maps, plot hooks, etc.

WOTC is only publishing sourcebooks and rules expansions. They have published only one "adventure module" (Tempest Feud) and while I've heard it is very good, it is also out of print. Many sourcebooks have adventure hooks and small scenarios and they do help, but if you're GMing you'll have to do a lot of your own work.

There are also two editions of materials, The OCR (Original Core Rules) and the RCR (Revised Core Rules). The materials published for the OCR need minor conversions to be used with the RCR, but it's not that big a deal. Just make sure you buy the RCR since, in comparison, the OCR sucks.

D20 vs. Shadowrun rules
It all boils down to preference. No rules system is perfect. Classes are only as restricted as you make them. A D20 class affects the abilities you get and the skills you can buy. It does not affect how you play your character. To cite your example, your skinny, agile naive, tough character could have been any class in the game. None of those adjetives apply to class.

A class defines some aspects of your character, mainly some special abilities and such. It doesn't have to affect how you play your character. Multi classing is encouraged. You can have levels in as many classes as you like, with no penalty. With prestige classes (classes that you can only qualify for after acquiring a few levels), you can customize your character even further.

Other Materials
You can use D&D 3rd Ed monsters as well as stuff from d20 Modern. As a matter of fact, my characters will be encountering at least two of the creatures/races found in the d20 Modern Menace Manual.

Support
There is a great deal of online support for Star Wars D20, both from WOTC and the internet community in general. The WOTC site regularly posts small, free scenarios and other downloadables.

As far as the rules go, many of us who play are worried about them bringing out a new set of rules next year. But several of the key game designers, such as J.D. Wiker, regularly post on the official message boards, so I think they have a good grasp of how poorly another revision would be received.

Our campaign has been running for almost a year. So far the characters have disrupted a Hutt crimelord's orgy, performed a hostage rescue/terrorist elimination mission (successfully) on a space station, and spent way too much time mucking around on a junk world looking for a wrecked Sith battleship. They are currently preparing to assault a Hutt crimelord's fortress (same Hutt) and steal medicine to save some sick children.

I would have to say give it a try. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me.

Adam View Member Profile	Oct 3 2003, 04:22 PM Post #7
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Suppose-wise, there was also the Star Wars Gamer magazine that was published for a short while; I flicked through one of the issues last week and it looked relatively good.

Harkon View Member Profile	Oct 4 2003, 08:01 AM Post #8
Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 8-November 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 3,580	ahh... My favourite d20 product (also happens to be the only d20 product that I have read and liked). To try and not bore you to tears telling you about SW d20, I'll stick to the points you mentioned: A) Linear probability distribution. This will always be a stumbling block for any game that rolls a single dice for determining success. Linked to this problem is d20's binary nature of success/no success (no staging). The problem isn't as bad as you think because generally you roll two sets of dice to do most things, generally test and effect (eg. attack and damage); or opposed rolls (skill vs skill or skill vs save). Assuming 10 to be "average" (or taking the expected value of 10.5) to mean much can be dangerous, it is safer to take the roll you require to succeed and take that is a percentage of success. That being said, there are a number things in the system (more SW than d20 in general) that do have degree of success (jumping and force powers are the more common ones). B) Feats and Rules-fu. First off, many people have a general grasp of d20, or can learn pretty quickly. The problem with products like 3rd Edition D&D was that it kept things simple in some areas, while overcomplicating it in other areas. In SW, this is generally not the case. With Feats and Class features and racial abilities, it is up to he player to record stuff like that on the character sheet, and the better ones have seperate areas to record scores if they are liable to change. With what each class gets at each level, again this is the players responisibilty to keep the character sheet valid. There may be a problem with prestige classes, though remember these are only available with GM approval so you only need to read up on what your players want to use. C) Class and level based progression. In SW d20, everyone except for Jedi are encouraged to mix classes (a lot more than in D&D) as most classes do no penalise the taking of multiple classes while giving all the advantages. There are 9 basic classes, 6 mundane and 3 force users which are physical Jedi (Obi Wan); scholar Jedi (Yoda); non-Jedi force user (called Force Adepts, they are from a tradition other than Sith or Jedi); fringer, a jack-of-all-trades like young Luke; scoundrel (Han); scout (Chewie); tech specialist; noble (Padme); soldier. You can mix all of these except the Jedi classes. Then there are prestige classes to focus specialisations (such as belonging to a certain group like Rogue Squadron). This is where you have to be careful, because not all prestige classes are equal so think about game balance if you allow them. D) The books are a little pricey, since they are mostly hardback. The rulebook does cover more ground than the D&D PHB though. You would do well to buy only the revised rulebook and only the sourcebooks that came after this book because the changes were enough that some of the older sourcebooks are no longer that useful for game content (the better bits were put in the core rule book). I think the odds of a revision is low, since they have all this new stuff out or in the pipeline that fits with the current rules set, I think it would be more likely that Wizards would publish an Ep3 sourcebook.

Bagpuss View Member Profile	Oct 5 2003, 04:38 PM Post #9
Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 404	The best thing d20 has over d6 starwars is the fact that jedi don't over balance in d20 nearly as much. Mixed parties are much better under d20 as a non-jedi can mix into the combat almost as well as a jedi. In d6 jedi are much, much harder than normals. Thats not to say jedi don't get realy sick in d20, just that a simaler level soldier can keep up. mmmmm Knights of the Old Republic. A game that is realy addictive and works well (based of the d20 system)

Adam View Member Profile	Oct 5 2003, 07:37 PM Post #10
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	As we play Star Wars more, we keep noticing wacky things that don't quite jibe with what we think makes sense. Part of the game mechanics seem to be written to provide "balanced" mechanics, and part seem to be written "because this stuff happened in the movies that way, so people will want to do it in the game that way." Perhaps it's because my gaming group has a large number of people who know d20 extremely well, but we're having just as much fun kit-bashing house rules and building expansion material as we are playing the game. If you have less d20 experience you may not notice some of what we think are "problems" at all, though. At some point we'll be putting a house rules PDF online, I believe.

The_Sarge View Member Profile	Oct 5 2003, 07:47 PM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Germany/Europe/Terra/Sol Member No.: 684	What irks me most on Star Wars d20 is the use of so much Movie-material und focusing on this particular timeline. The West End Games version felt somehow... Freer. I don't know. Perhaps because there wasn't this whole "Because it happened in the movie, you have to adhere to it" thing. Are there suggestions for running a post-imperium game in d20?

Siege View Member Profile	Oct 5 2003, 09:33 PM Post #12
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	There's not a lot of "canon" post-Empire material out, but there are some books that touch on Rogue Squadron and remnants of the Empire fighting to hold their own against the new Alliance(?) or Republic or whatever. I don't even remember the author's name -- the one who wrote "Wolf and Raven" and his work has been downhill since then. Stackpole, Michael Stackpole. -Siege

Catsnightmare View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 05:02 AM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90	Honestly I haven't looked at Star Wars D20 since it first came out (the OCR), and I was not impressed with it at all. I grew up played the WEG d6 version, and that's just what feels right to me. I'm not overly fond of 'character classes' in Star Wars setting, so I haven't really put much into looking into the d20 version. However as an option (and an expensive one I'll admit) I would recommend using the Basic/Advanced Class system out of D20 Modern RPG for Star Wars. It offers a bit more flexability than the straight out 'you-are-this-class' presented in the Star Wars d20 book.

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 09:30 AM Post #14
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	Well I tried to buy the Star Wars RCR this weekend and failed miserably - of all the places I went, only one had a set of core rule and they were OCR. I had a platest of D6 and the thing that bothers me is teh number fo rolls for combat (initiative, Attack, Defense, Damage and Soak). I much prefer their Master Book system for that - one roll and then just a calculation (Attack roll - Reaction skill = Result Points, Result Points + Damage of weapon less Toughness of target = Result Points to look up on Damage chart - sounds complicated but I was surprised how quickly it ran).

Harkon View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 10:36 AM Post #15
Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 8-November 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 3,580	IMO the non-revised book is a vastly inferior product compared to the revision. @The Sarge: The core rule book (revised) is pretty decent in terms of material for the eras in general. For expanded material, the Rebellion sourcebook has a little bit of stuff on post Imperium era (ie straight after the destruction of the second death star), while the New Jedi Order has information on the setting a decent amount of time after the destruction of the Death Star Mk2.

Guest_Ristin Raccoon_*	Oct 6 2003, 10:47 AM Post #16
Guests	Give in...you know you want to... Turn to the dark side...think of the power...think of the glory! Don't believe what 'they' tell you...the dark side is the way...think of all the things you could do...with the dark side as your allie... You know I'm right...you know it's your destiny...embrace it...

The White Dwarf View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 02:53 PM Post #17
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754	Adam, could you be a little more specific in which things are giving you pause? Im curious because I will eventually have to deal with this (pseduo long story) and a heads up would be nice. Im familiar enough with d20 to feel I fall into the category youre talking about. As to the original post, I pretty much concur with the more recent above posts. Overall it works well. The linear dice roll tends to only matter in two cases: starting off (when your bonus is +1 youre basically only as good as your luck) and when youre dealing with something dead even to you (when his AC = your Attack Bonus its a flat crap shoot). Otherwise it tends to even itself out pretty well with ranks and the "take 10/20" rules. Some things seem a bit out of whack, like that armor is sorta pointless, but then again it didnt really do the storm troopers much good did it =). Overall if youre a Star Wars fan it seems solid. I liked the movied but Im not a fanatic so I only play when my friends (2 of which are fanatics) get something going, but I really prefer it to the d6 system which had innumerable things I disliked. This one I find enjoyable enough that having to do Star Wars as a different game for awhile isnt painful but a fun excursion.

Adam View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 03:11 PM Post #18
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	I'll try and post our house rule mods in a few days; I'm on a crunch deadline at work and can't spare the time to type up the issues we've had right now - sorry!

Rajaat99 View Member Profile	Oct 6 2003, 03:55 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166	The West End Games system is SO MUCH better. I have the D20 StarWars game and compared to WEG, it's.... not very good.

Adam

Oct 6 2003, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE (Rajaat99)

The West End Games system is SO MUCH better. I have the D20 StarWars game and compared to WEG, it's.... not very good.

Saying why you think the WEG game is so much better would be much more helpful than just saying that you think it's better... :)

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Oct 15 2003, 10:31 AM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	Well just so you know I bought the Revised Core Rules and am busy reading it. I am a little disappointed with teh whole Level thing and how some Feats just seem to be affectively extra Skill Adds but I will persevere and try it out (besides I have a load of Star Wars Lego to use as minatures :) )

Rajaat99

Oct 20 2003, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE (Adam @ Oct 6 2003, 04:15 PM)

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Oct 6 2003, 10:55 AM)

The West End Games system is SO MUCH better. I have the D20 StarWars game and compared to WEG, it's.... not very good.

Saying why you think the WEG game is so much better would be much more helpful than just saying that you think it's better... :)

Sorry about that.
With WEG, you can make a more unique character. In D20, one human Jedi Guardian is same as the next. WEG, was skill, not level based, so it was easier to make two totally different human Jedi's.
I guess the reason I like it most, is because it was more like SR and less like D&D. I love both games, but D6 gives more flexability to a character, which I think is important to a futuristic game.
Why you ask, is it important to have flexability in a futuristic game?
It's simply the ways of the world, or universe. A Star Wars soldier might have been taught at an academy with dozens of other soldiers and is able to use the most high tech weaponry. Where a Sand Person soldier in the middle of nowhere would probably have seen a blaster once, but wouldn't know how to use it.
But in D20 he would know, and he would be able to use it as well as more simple weapons, because he has the soldier class.
And before people get on me about, "A blaster is similer to a different kind of gun." The feats are different in D20. So, in conclusion, if you want to make a D20 soldier raised in the middle of nowhere, he'd still know how to use blaster rifles, because that's part of his class.
Also the "Tales of the Jedi Companion" sourcebook for WEG is so damn cool. I won't explain this one, you'll have to check it out yourself.

RangerJoe View Member Profile	Oct 27 2003, 06:04 PM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897	Never give in. For those interested in d6 Star Wars, easily the best site on the net for resources, rules, gear, etc. is the Rebel Roleplayers Allaince.

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Nov 11 2003, 09:46 AM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	I just thought that people might like to know that I played Star Wars D20 for the first time at the weekend in a Living Force campaign. And I have to say I loved it! The D20 system is growing on me, at least the Star Wars version of it, and I especially like the Vitality / Wound distinction as this still leaves a fear of death no matter what your level. I do still think the linear nature of the D20 is a bit of a problem, and especially at low levels as we were, luck plays more of a part than skill (especially in Initiative). Any way I think the system suits Star Wars as it is very cinematic anyway. I also think I enjoyed the game a lot as I had a very relevant character - a fringer Doctor in a game where the main focus was a virus designed to target Caarites. I even enjoyed combat despite not having Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Pistol and using only a Sporting Blaster. I missed just about every thing until the jedi of the group got taken down by the darkside, lightsaber wielding villain - and then I got a critical and finished her off! Yay! for Star Wars :)

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 11 2003, 01:44 PM Post #25
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	We've been playing Forgotten Realms for the last few weeks... I'd think it's been about a month since we've played Star Wars, and I'm actively missing the game. Unfortunately, the Realms campaign will die a slow ugly death if we don't play it regularly, and the group has two years invested in it . . .

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