Star Wars D20 - Should I give in?, And what are your opinions? Options

[Scarab]

After playing Knights of the Old Republic for 12 hours, I went out and bought the Star Wars RCR. :)

I already have about 15 kilos of D&D3E material, so the basic system is nothing new to me. I like the VP/WP system a lot; it gives a more cinematic feel.

Now if I only had the motivation to run a campaign...

[DigitalMage]

Yes, I have been pleasantly surpised by the Star Wars game, but that may be alot to do with the changes they made to the D20 system - VP/WP, so it is still possible to kill someone outright, and DR for armour rather than Defense Bonuses, easy multiclassing.

Mind you I have not played too much D&D and so those things may not be such a big issue if I played more, but they just don't seem right to me some how.

[sapphire_wyvern]

The d20 system works really well for Star Wars. By mixing & matching classes, there's actually a very wide range of character types - especially since there are no XP penalties for multiclassing. Even the Jedi classes can be combined with any other class *except* the other Jedi (so you can have Noble/Soldier/Jedi Guardian, for instance, but not Jedi Guardian/Jedi Consular).

My first Star Wars d20 character was a Bothan Scoundrel/Noble. Very fun to play. :)

The distinction between Vitality Points (heroically avoiding damage) and Wound Points (actual physical damage) is infinitely superior to the horrible D&D hit points, which are sorta abstract and sorta not.

Oh and by the way, Star Wars d20 *does* have levels of success... it's right there on page 70: "GM Notes: Degrees of Success". They just don't matter as much as in SR.

Basically, the d20 system is appropriate for some genres of game, and not others. I find that it works very well for cinematic, heroic games (D&D - although there are many aspects of that game I hate for other reasons - Star Wars, arguably Stargate) and very poorly for gritty, realistic games (Shadowrun, for instance).

[cleggster]

I have decided to add my experience with both. This kinds ties in with the other D20 thread.

I was in a Star Wars game dateing back to college. sigh That was using the West End games version. I had develop a neet character who was a Jedi pretending to be a pirate. Ace pilot, strong in the force, skilled with a saber and bristling with lots of obvious weaponry. He also could not hit the side of a freighter. Terrible shot. He used the force to make him look like he was better then he was. Fun guy to play.

Couple 'O years ago, the gm switched to the new D20 system. He loved it since it made the GM's life easier. The problem came witch converting over. Most of the team fitted in nicely. 2 of us however did not. Especial my guy.

Problem 1. Combat is based solely on level. If you are 7th level, you have 7th level combat ability in everything. If you don't have a feat in something, you get -4 from the attack. While this is significant, it still went up with your level. So a high level character is good with everything. Also you cant be much better then your level. Again, their is Weapon Focus but that only adds +1. So the issue was that wasn't much difference between shotting and swinging the saber for him.

Problem 2. Suddenly his pilot skills were worthless. Ship combat didn't alow the pilot to do...anything. All a pilot does is decide where to point the ship. The attack is based soley on the size of the ship. No dodging. This was kinda unfun all around.

Problem 3. Make or break. In D20, there are no grey areas. When it comes down to the role, you either fail or succeed. While that faster it took some of the fun away from the old near miss and the "kinda" succuss. This is especial noticeable with force powers.

This isn't meant to be a nick pick here. Just wanted to share the experience we had with the conversion. The big beef is with flexibility. With skill systems, you can do really anything you want. Like in Shadowrun. But I suppose that could be intimidating. Part of the fun of D&D is picking you charachter. When you say you are a 5th level priest, everybody knows what that entails.

basically, as I see it, D20 is for people who want to pick charachter right for the setting. Skill based is for people who want to create character in the setting.

[DigitalMage]

[bwdemon]

Cleggster:

Problem 1 is off a bit. Yes, you get progressively better with all combat as you gain experience. But ask yourself why? It isn't automatically because you sat around and practiced with every weapon whether you wanted to or not. You've lost some of the jitters that creep up when a firefight begins. Your reactions have increased that little bit that makes everything easier. And believe me, if you start firing a blaster pistol, sans the appropriate feat, you'll miss plenty. Firing into melee (absent another feat) is an additional -4, tacked onto the -4 you've got to begin with, with additional minuses based on range. That all adds up to a LOT of missing, especially compared to how the character will do with his lightsaber. On the other side, stat mods and feat mods can make a character very impressive with a weapon, in spite of their level. Combat isn't all about how high your roll is, but what you can do, how many times you can do it, and how effective you are at it.

Problem 2 is off a lot. I don't know if your character is a transport or starfighter pilot, but a pilot of either can fire a weapon as an attack action. Size is and should be very important as a defensive characteristic. A pilot can fly defensively or even use full defense to dodge fire. You can use cover, angle shields, maneuver as you will... either you didn't look at the rules or the GM didn't want to deal with it.

Problem 3 is, again, off a lot. As others have mentioned, there is a degree of success factor in SW(d20) for skill checks. It's in combat too, but it's largely a function of the damage roll. Roll well, you hit solidly. Roll poorly and you only nicked them. Manage a critical hit and you probably killed them instantly. I don't know why so many people refuse to see this, but maybe they just hate successful companies?

DigitalMage:

As with cleggster, you messed up a bit in your assumption on combat, confusing a general increase in natural ability to do anything in combat with training. However, you go further as to want to actually forbid your character from being in any way effective in combat, correct?

Option 1: never pick up a weapon and dive behind cover the second you hear a "click". You really want to play a Radio Shack clerk? What's heroic about that? I can't imagine this being the least bit fun and, were I a teammate, I'd demand you learn how to defend yourself and your teammates, because whether you want to or not, you may HAVE to.

Option 2: you play a tech specialist, you'll always suck at combat even if you do pick up the appropriate feats and it appears you have no intent to do that. So you don't have to worry about it.

If your character can be replaced easily and cheaply by a droid, then maybe you should rethink the character. It's all well and good to dump skill point after skill point and feat after feat into astrogation, computer, or repair skills, but an R2 unit can handle those just as well while leaving more heroic pursuits to the characters. SW is about heroism, not about playing the best bread baker in all of the Core Worlds. Step up to the challenge or start looking into computer games like "The Sims", "Everquest", and "Ultima Online" that are geared toward everyday menial tasks.

[DigitalMage]

[bwdemon]

I'd just give the players reasonable access to a 2-1B droid and the occasional bacta tank for medical care, but if you, the other players, and your GM are all comfortable with you taking up that role and with devoting game time to the role, then I've got no complaint, nor a right to one. :)

Sorry if I came off a bit rough before. Studying for finals has made me one cranky gamer... heheh.

[DigitalMage]