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> Armor values from cyber limbs, etc., Is this right?
SunJester
post Jan 14 2006, 11:44 AM
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I have created a character for a player in my game. He is a dwarf with an armor jacket (8/6), helmet (+1/+2), level 1 dermal plate (+1/+1), both arms replaced with armor 2 in each (+2/+2 and +2/+2), and his torso replaced with armor 1 in it (+1/+1). My understanding is that I just add all of these up giving the character armor ratings of 15 ballistic and 14 impact. Am I doing this wrong?
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Ryu
post Jan 14 2006, 12:56 PM
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Cyberlimb attributes only count for tests against that limb, so you would be looking at (10/10), (11/11) in case of the arms. You need one point of armor on the replacement parts just to compensate the loss of dermal plating.
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SunJester
post Jan 14 2006, 03:14 PM
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I have three issues with your interpretation.

1) Hit locations don't exist in SR4 (unless I have missed them.) Everything is kept pretty abstract.

2) Although it is true that attributes of cyberlimbs only apply to that limb, armor is not an attribute. There are only 12 attributes in the game.

3) Given the above, I can't find any support for your interpretation in the rules.

Further reading on my part, however, has caused me to revise my opinion on the correct interpretation. There is no indication that the armor from cyberlimbs is a bonus. Therefore, using the rules for stacking armor, the character above, fully outfitted should have armor values of 10/9. When he takes the jacket and helmet off, he would have armor values of 6/6. I believe that for encumberance purposes, however, he would have an effective armor value of 15/14 to be compared to 2x Body which will be a problem for this character indicating that I need to rework him. ( I just found those darn encumberance rules. )

Does this now look correct to everyone? Any disagreements? Am I still doing this wrong?
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Squinky
post Jan 14 2006, 04:28 PM
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It just flat out stacks. Kinda like helmets.

You get into funny areas when you combine orthoskin/sermal plating with a couple armored cyber-limbs, but there are other funny areas in the rules.

So yeah, his armor is 15/14.

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Orb
post Jan 14 2006, 05:08 PM
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I don't think that the individual cyber armour levels stack. Why - look at pg 335 - CYBERLIMB enhancements. This tells us that, for tests involving the whole body, you have to use the average attribute rating. Its not clear that this applys to armour as well, but if you look on the table on the next page, you'll see that Armour is a Cyberlimb enhancement. With no rule to say that armour doesn't obey the rules for the other cyberlimb enhancements, I'd say that it must. So in this case, this is how I'd calculate armour.

Head (+1)
Torso (+1)
L Arm (+2)
R Arm (+2)
L Leg (+1)
R Leg (+1)

Average: 1.33 or rounded to just 1. If I were your GM, you could probably argue that it should be rounded up and you might win.

Armour Jacket (8/6)
Helmet (+1/+2)
Cyber (+1/+1)

Total: (10/9)

If an attack were directed against either arm specifically, the armour would be 10/8, as your helmet wouldn't help.

That's the way I read the rules.
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PlatonicPimp
post Jan 14 2006, 06:14 PM
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GOD, this again.
House rule it and wait for the errata. We haven't come to any consensus on these boards.

Fanpro, wizkids, WHOEVER, PLEASE get on giving us official word on this.
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 14 2006, 06:42 PM
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Cyberlimb armor is actually a separate entry from Cyberlimb Enhancements, so the averaging rules don't apply to cyberlimb armor. Admittedly, this could be much clearer.

-Frank
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Ryu
post Jan 14 2006, 06:50 PM
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Yes, there isnīt a system for hit allocation. SR3 didnīt have those either, so that is not a point Iīm afraid.

Armor isnīt on the metahuman attribute table except for the troll racial mod. It still is an enhancement for cyberlimbs (both from a literal interpretation of the word and itīs placment in the book). Rounding is done for anything except using attributes for a test where only a replaced limb matters.

Encumbrance: As long as the cyberlimb is mounted, it counts as part of the body and does not encumber you in any way. Encumbrance is based on worn armor alone.
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Squinky
post Jan 14 2006, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (Orb)
I don't think that the individual cyber armour levels stack. Why - look at pg 335 - CYBERLIMB enhancements. This tells us that, for tests involving the whole body, you have to use the average attribute rating. Its not clear that this applys to armour as well, but if you look on the table on the next page, you'll see that Armour is a Cyberlimb enhancement. With no rule to say that armour doesn't obey the rules for the other cyberlimb enhancements, I'd say that it must. So in this case, this is how I'd calculate armour.

Head (+1)
Torso (+1)
L Arm (+2)
R Arm (+2)
L Leg (+1)
R Leg (+1)

Average: 1.33 or rounded to just 1. If I were your GM, you could probably argue that it should be rounded up and you might win.

Armour Jacket (8/6)
Helmet (+1/+2)
Cyber (+1/+1)

Total: (10/9)

If an attack were directed against either arm specifically, the armour would be 10/8, as your helmet wouldn't help.

That's the way I read the rules.

Like Frank said, it isn't an attribute. Bu tlooking at this example of rounding, don't you see how dumb it would be too do it this way? A fully boged out metal character would have lower armor than a person with dermal plating. Goofy.

If stack it, it at least makes sense. I know you guys a re getting the idea from SR3, but a lot of things have changed since then. Major difference I would see is that you could get more armor per limb in sr3 and you averaged, typical body armors were 5/3 or something like that.

In SR4, you get less per limb, and typical armor ratings have gone way up, 8/6 being pretty normal. Can't you see the comparison here?
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Orb
post Jan 15 2006, 07:58 AM
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Yeah but if we do it your way a full 'borg with 4 points of armour in each location, except the head which can handle only 2 would have 22/22 armour, naked. And assuming you have natural looking limbs, its concealed as well. Now, a CityMaster has only 20 armour and full body armour with a helmet is 12/10.

Now, there's nothing stopping our borg from putting on some heavy armour and having an armour rating of 34/32 - that's totally absurd. Its equal to a main battle tank.

I guess this one's been discussed and there are clearly two ways to read to book. As PlatonicPimp says, I guess we have to choose our interpretation and house rule it until we see clarification in an errata.
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SunJester
post Jan 15 2006, 01:47 PM
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Thanks for your feed back, everyone. I believe that in the absence of anything on this topic official, I am going to read the rules literally.

Armor is not an attribute, so it is not subject to the rounding rule.

Armor does not specifically say that it stacks. Other cyber enhancements like dermal plating do say that they stack. Therefore, I am ruling that armor from cyberlimbs does not stack.

I am not going to apply the penalty to encumbrance from the armor on cyberlimbs because it is not "worn".

I hope that something official does come out soon.

Thanks, again.
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Ryu
post Jan 15 2006, 01:52 PM
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It does not need to be an attribute. It is a cyberware enhancement, and armor seems to be a value. All values except the attributes for tests get rounded. Bad rule placement, simple and clear rule.

Also Iīd like to get a reference for the idea that armor may suddenly be added up (helmets and shields are, but that is specific exemption).
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Ryu
post Jan 15 2006, 01:59 PM
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Wrote that at the same time, SunJester.

I would suggest to round the armor and apply it as inherent mod from the body nevertheless, since otherwise the armor mod does nothing for the character. I do concede that said ruling is more literal than mine.
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Kerberos
post Jan 15 2006, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Orb)
Yeah but if we do it your way a full 'borg with 4 points of armour in each location, except the head which can handle only 2 would have 22/22 armour, naked. And assuming you have natural looking limbs, its concealed as well. Now, a CityMaster has only 20 armour and full body armour with a helmet is 12/10.

Now, there's nothing stopping our borg from putting on some heavy armour and having an armour rating of 34/32 - that's totally absurd. Its equal to a main battle tank.

I guess this one's been discussed and there are clearly two ways to read to book. As PlatonicPimp says, I guess we have to choose our interpretation and house rule it until we see clarification in an errata.

OK, now you just need for you battletank, ehm I mean character, to have a body of around 17 so he can actually move too.
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Squinky
post Jan 15 2006, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Orb)
Yeah but if we do it your way a full 'borg with 4 points of armour in each location, except the head which can handle only 2 would have 22/22 armour, naked. And assuming you have natural looking limbs, its concealed as well. Now, a CityMaster has only 20 armour and full body armour with a helmet is 12/10.

Now, there's nothing stopping our borg from putting on some heavy armour and having an armour rating of 34/32 - that's totally absurd. Its equal to a main battle tank.

I guess this one's been discussed and there are clearly two ways to read to book. As PlatonicPimp says, I guess we have to choose our interpretation and house rule it until we see clarification in an errata.

Any arguement can have it's extremes. Just like Troll Archers, things can get nuts when you follow the rules.

One thing to note is that an armored character like you mentioned would require cutting off all their body parts (losing all their essence) and plating themselves in a full-body robo-cop style armor. They wouldn't be able to do much else, giving up all their options for the armor.

You can do that with any character really, over specializing and creating a munched out character.
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KarmaInferno
post Jan 15 2006, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Orb)
Yeah but if we do it your way a full 'borg with 4 points of armour in each location, except the head which can handle only 2 would have 22/22 armour, naked. And assuming you have natural looking limbs, its concealed as well.

Well, put it this way. You're a freaking metal man.

Robocop was pretty damn bullet-resistant, too.


-karma
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Squinky
post Jan 15 2006, 05:05 PM
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Exactly.

Why is it ok to buy flexible thin body armor that gives 6 armor (urban explorer) and get orthoskin (simple weaving of resistant fiber in your flexible skin) up to 3 armor, but not okay to cover your hard, metal body in some badass armor?
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Liper
post Jan 15 2006, 08:03 PM
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because people are afraid!
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Kerberos
post Jan 15 2006, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
Exactly.

Why is it ok to buy flexible thin body armor that gives 6 armor (urban explorer) and get orthoskin (simple weaving of resistant fiber in your flexible skin) up to 3 armor, but not okay to cover your hard, metal body in some badass armor?

It wouldn't even be efficient with that much armour due to the penalties. Even a troll with exceptional attribute Body who'd reached his augmented maximum would have -1 penalty to reaction and agility. Any remotely normal character would be incapable of moving.
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Liper
post Jan 15 2006, 09:54 PM
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it won't be too concealed because limbs have a body rating that requires enchancment to layer alot of armour, second in synthetic limbs you have less capacity then in obvious ones.
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mfb
post Jan 15 2006, 10:51 PM
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Generally speaking, to alleviate the potential for insane armor placed on two cyberlimbs making a character very close to invulnerable, it'd probably be wise for cyberlimb armor to be averaged. You just have to consider the potential cyberlimb locations (head, torso, two arms, two legs), which total to six, and divide the sum of the cyberlimb armors by six. Given that the character with two points of armor on each of two cyberlimbs would have 0.67/0.67 armor, it'd probably be best to round up to +1/+1 armor conveyed by the cyberlimb armor.

Otherwise, a full cyborg with the highest possible armor would have 24/24 armor without considering worn armor. As that would pretty much guarantee the negation of 8 boxes of damage, and virtually assure all damage suffered was stun damage, it could cause real issues trying to harm that character. The averaging scheme seems to induce less insanity.

zomg i em teh mfbQ!
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Space Ghost
post Jan 15 2006, 10:55 PM
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This discussion is pretty relevant for me, since i'm playing a full borg and there's another PC with 4 armored limbs in my game. When making the character we dealt with the problem by allowing the full armor value to add onto other armor, with the added limitation that we should not abuse it lest it be changed. i put armor on eveything except my head for +5/+5, she got a point on each limb for +4/+4. Now, considering that for each point takes 2 capacity, and each point of Bod/Str/Agi costs only 1 i've come to the following conclusions:

1. If armor were averaged and not added together it would be much smarter to add 2 points of Body to each limb instead 1 point of armor. You won't be able to convert physical to stun as often, but since each limb gives an extra physical box but not stun that's not such a bad thing. (My character has a ridiculous physical damage track, but he tends to only take stun so it doesn't matter)
2 The only way to truly abuse the armor rules would cut into your limbs' stats leaving it pretty clumsy and weak. Wanna be robocop? You'll move about as fast as he does too.
3.If armor takes up capacity, it should be IN the limb, as opposed to ON the limb. i figure armor on cyberlimbs can't be seen, but it doesn't really matter if you're a full borg because you are truly a freak to begin with. Trying to get any armor in synthetic limbs is hard because they have way less capacity, and armor takes up twice as much capacity as stats.
4. The limb rules are so flawed that we can't even begin to guess which parts to keep and which to toss. For instance: Meta-human cyberlimbs start with stats of 3, which makes it really hard just to break even on an average troll's Str/Bod. Also, all cyberlimbs except the head have attributes, so the head doesn't count when totaling up average stat ratings. Would it count for armor if you were taking the average? If so, any average on limbs would be spread out between 5 points (4 limbs and torso), but averaging armor would be spread between 6. Meaning you're using up 12 capacity total to get a single point of armor.

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Galmorez
post Jan 26 2006, 02:04 AM
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Hey, it's TinMan!
Don't forget to add 6 fire, electricity, cold, chemical, and thermographic resistances to your insane armor. Also, be sure to dikote it, and add gelpacks.

Then wear a trenchcoat and hat so people don't shoot at you because you look like a fraggin' cyberzombie. hahahaha (Of course, they wouldn't do any damage...)
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Gabriel (Argus #...
post Jan 26 2006, 06:45 AM
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It's hard to for me to say... On one hand, cyberlimbs seem kind of weak in SR4, at least when compared to just augmenting normal stats with enhancement ware. Giving someone a whole bunch more armor would make it worth it, but the amount of armor being gained is a tad bit ridiculous.

So... I guess I'm not really adding much (except my two cents), but I think if there is some downside to all that armor (not being able to move very fast), then I say let them go for it. In a comic-book anime style sort-of-way, I think its cool to have a super-armored full conversion panzermensch able to easily shrug off anything smaller than a fifty cal.
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ChaotikVisions
post Jan 26 2006, 10:07 AM
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I've been wondering this myself since my first SR4 char makes use of 2 points of armor on his cybertorso. The GM ruled that it stacked but I can see how this has the pontentional for abuse if used on characters that replace alot of limbs. Getting 20B/20I added on would just be nuts. There are some ways to balance this though.

First off would be to say only the highest armor on a limb(4B/4I) applies like it does with stacked body armor. This would make piling up armor useless unless you expected to start getting limbs shot off. Combine this with a limbs max armor being 1B/1I(or maybe 2B/2I?) unless using a cybertorso to prevent people from taking one limb for a quick and easy armor boost. (The logic being you requiring a sturdy base to distribute the weight and reinforcement for extra armor.)

The second way would be to do the same rule, but expand it. Say that characters using a cybertorso can go to double the value before hitting the limit(8B/8I). This could create some unbalanced characters though, maybe limit it to just 1.5 times the value or require the armor for to reach this 8B/8I actually be 8 more pieces of armor to count as 4 more. Thats a bit confusing though.

The third way would be to link the amount of armor that can be taken on a limb to its body. Require two points of body per point of armor. Also raise the cost of armor to 3 capacity per rank and availability to 6xrank. So if someone wanted to go 4 points of armor on every limb they'd have to go +5 body as well, for a total of 17 capacity spent. Combine this with the effectiveness of cyberlimb armor being reduced by half if already wearing armor and being ignored completely if cyberlimb armor value ever exceeds worn armor value. (The somewhat fuzzy logic being that if the bullet gets past normal armor its probably going at a less protected vital point anyway.)

The only limb on which this would be feasible without hampering yourself alot would be the legs and even then you'd be sacrificing one of your three attributes (only 3 left to spend). So the max armor would be 2 for torso, 6 for arms, and 8 for legs for a total of 16B/16I when not wearing armor.

A more common use would probably be 2 torso, 4 for arms, and 6 for legs for a total of 12B/12I, the equivalent of full body armor(which you basically just bought via cyberlimbs) so its more reasonable. If we wanted to limit this even further we could just add the rule that when your cyberlimb armor total exceeds your body attribute it is reduced by half. Of course this could still allow munchkins to an extent, but it would allow it to be used in normal play just fine I think.


So what does everyone think? Its 3am and I typed it out while thinking so the rules get progressively more complex, but I prefer either the third or first now that I look back on them. First is easy to implement but limits creativeness with limbs, third is more complicated but allows free reign.
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