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 Uncybered Mundanes, Are they a viable choice? |
 Jan 16 2006, 05:36 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Texarkana, TX Member No.: 8,097  |
Sure, but that 30 odd points the samurai dumps into cyber is 30 points the mundane can dump into skills, stats, or contacts. And while cyber can make you better at a whole range of tasks, it doesn't necessarily provide a huge advantage in EVERY task, like hacking or knowledge skills for example. |
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Jan 16 2006, 06:01 PM
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#27
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
There's a 200 points cap for stats though, so the sam and mundane can (but don't nessecary need to) be on the same level at chargen. But i agree with spending more points for skills - that's the field an uncybered guy can shine.
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Jan 16 2006, 06:16 PM
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#28
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Shadowrun 4 is much more survivable when a single guy shoots you. The days of Power Level 20 Deadly Wounds being handed out on a regular basis are over. But it is also less practical to wade through multiple opponents with small arms. The days when a heavily armored character could expect to bounce dozens of light pistol shots without a scratch are likewise over. The combat field has been levelled substantially, and the the end result is that getting caught is really really bad.
Hiding in plain sight is a big part of SR4. One of the primary abilities of the uncybered mundane is that he actually doesn't have any cyberware or magic to find - he really is an "ordinary citizen" from the standpoint of a lot of security measures that could potentially undermine a mission. Now personally, I find that the loss in subtlety one gets from putting in cybereyes and a synaptic accelerator is so minor that it is more than made up for by the increased capabilities (not the least of which is that you don't have security-grade goggles in your pocket - which can be tough to explain to arcology staff). SR4 is less about how many combat modifiers you have, and more about how many alarms you set off. Being more like one of the six billion faceless metahumans populating the world is its own reward. -Frank |
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Jan 16 2006, 07:57 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 26-February 02 From: BC, Canada Member No.: 97 |
Many of the sensory disadvantages of being uncybered can be countered by the use of gear like goggles with an image link, smartgun link, lowlight and/or thermographic vision, vision enhancements and vision magnification. The same can be said for sound enhancements as well. These enhancements can always be purchased and put into a helmet that gives you [+1/+2] if you're willing to walk around with a helmet on.
The only mechanical problem I can see a person having is "only" having one initiative pass like most of the goons you'll be facing. This is not entirely bad, but one tends to have more points in Edge, so you're more likely to go first and if not, you can always use a point for another pass or the ability to say to the Wired Reflex monkey, "I don't care if you got nine hits on your initiative, I'm going first!" |
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Jan 16 2006, 08:19 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
With Skinlinks you can be a Hacker. You don't need any cyberware as far as I can tell.
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Jan 16 2006, 10:13 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
As for their being no upgrade rules, the fact that there is none means you have to house rule it, so how that influences the equation depends on your house rules. As for the uncybered not being much weaker, I honestly can't see how it's not a significant difference to have 3 extra dice with you weapon (Reflex recorder and muscle toner lever 2) , 4 extra dice on your dodge (wired reflexes and reaction enhancers level 2) and going three times for each time the uncybered guy does, can possibly be considered a minor difference. As for going magical later the rules might not state anything specific, but from the setting it's very clear that you're either born magical or you're not, with very, very few, very special exceptions. Waiting until later to get cyberware does give some advantages in the long run, but only if you live long enough and if there’s enough loot, so it would depend on the lethality and profitability of your campaign. |
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Jan 16 2006, 10:47 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
meh, 3 dice is pretty minor--consider that a maxed-out mundane can have up to 12 dice, base. 15 dice is nice, but it's not required for badass combat types, the way a smartlink was in SR3.
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Jan 16 2006, 10:53 PM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Kerberos, the question wasn't if you could kill people just as well with as without cyberware, the question was if it was viable to go without Cyberware and be a runner. The answer remains yes. I've never denied you can be better at certain things with cyber, even admitted it. But you can easily get enough dice to do a job without needing modifications.
BTW, buying a magical Quality later doesn't mean you weren't magical from birth, it just means you're starting to tap into it. Legally, you can 'buy' that magical Quality at the age of 40 if you want. Sphynx |
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Jan 16 2006, 11:14 PM
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#34
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Your uncybered character can change their mind later on and get a grip of implants, but they are never going to become magically active. If you want the character who gradually discovers magical power, go ahead and start a character with a Magic of 1. But that all has little relevence to the fact that an uncybered character can be a viable member of the team. There are advantages and disadvantages to having the smartlink inside the body or outside. Having different characters in the team make different choices means different capabilities which makes a stronger team over all. -Frank |
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Jan 16 2006, 11:17 PM
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#35
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
can you actually start with the quality and a magic rating of 0 and buy it up at a later date?
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Jan 16 2006, 11:23 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I echo Frank: Some qualities are chargen-only. I personally wish each of their entries were marked as such, but what can ya do.
From a build efficiency standpoint it is not ideal (yet quite legal) to make someone with Magic or Resonance of 1 and no other magical training nor abilities. If you do that, then you're back to waiting on the karma trickle. Besides, this thread is about characters who specifically have no magical nor technomantic capacity. |
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Jan 16 2006, 11:23 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
No, purchasing the Magician, Adept, or Mystic Adept quality gives you a Magic of 1 as part of the bundle. You can raise that 1 later with karma just like you would any other attribute (3 x new rating), of course. |
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Jan 17 2006, 05:37 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 3-January 06 Member No.: 8,127 |
I don't think anyone is arguing that mundanes are as good as enhanced runners. They aren't. That's pretty much the definition of enhanced.
What they're arguing is that mundanes are not so totally outclassed in combat that they're unplayable, and that the advantage of not spending points on ware and magic is you can plow those points into more Edge (which can really save your bacon) and skills to avoid overspecialization. That's apparently different from earlier editions, and is nice. It makes sense that cyborgs built for combat and adepts are better at killing. That's why those roles exist in the game, and make sense in the game world. But that doesn't mean that playing a mundane shouldn't be fun. The Edge rules allow it to be fun, and not instantly deadly. -C. |
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Jan 17 2006, 08:23 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
I'd say it really depends on the game you play. If the GM balances the game for über twinked cybers and adepts, then an uncybered mundane probably is so totally outclassed in combat that he'll be swish-kebab after the first combat turn. If it's balanced for uncybered or slightly cybered, less twinked characters then it is playable. |
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Jan 17 2006, 09:40 PM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
there's always the fun of being the mundane fighting against enhanced beings. The rules make it feasible to be a mundane, but as others have said, it really depends on the campaign and also the rest of the group.
What I like is more of the Blade runner feel, the mundanes being like Deckard [ Spoiler ] and him trying to take on stronger, faster, better replicants. Oh, how about Ghost in the Shell, with Togusa being one of the few uncybered guys around using more of his brains. Or maybe Leon and his partner in the ADP. But again, it really depends on how the campaign is like.
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Jan 17 2006, 10:03 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Canon roughly says that normally Awakened manifest their ability at puberty. Until then they don't have a Magic otherwise the Adept would have to allocate their Power Point? Although with a good enough Assense their Awakened nature would be seen, there aren't any specific rules for what Threshhold that is. So I see room for the GM to allow a PC with no apparent Magic manifest and stay mostly canon. I considered it myself for Slim. But 10 or 15 build points is expensive for something you aren't going to use on a PC that is scrambling just to say relavent. I didn't like what I foresaw of wareless mundanes in combat. Maybe Slim could have done ok in combat, but he isn't a very good test of that because the existing team he joined sounded to me like they were more in need of people skills. :cyber: So initially his combat skills aimed at minimal selfdefense, including his sole ranged attack skill that is intended as a legal-to-carry weapon that can blind the target group and distract by causing collateral damage to combustable material. So far he doesn't seem to do a lot more hand sitting than any other specialized PC, but I have only played him two sessions. The utility of the PC is going to be highly campaign dependant. So I am trying to compare him to the cybered stealthy face character that he replaced. |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:13 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Despite flavor text to the contrary, the RAW says that the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, and Technomancer qualities may be obtained only during character creation. They also say that the related attribute starts at 1. Adepts do not need to allocate their magic points as they gain them. You can save up, or you can just not have them allocated yet. That said, you can of course play your games however you want. I'm just saying what the book tells us. |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:20 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I think you misunderstand. I mean buy the Quality at character creation but appear to have Magic 0 and at a glance appear mundane on the astral. So the PC always has the Quality, it just remains unused and difficult to detect until activated. It is only a small step beyond a Magician that doesn't buy any Magical Skills and never projects or preceives, that is the astral appearance. The second difference for Adepts and Mystic Adepts is that they don't need to specify how they use their first power point during creation. |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:31 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Actually, I believe I do understand you.
The breakdown occurs in that purchasing the Quality automatically comes bundled with Magic:1. Therefore, if you have the Quality, then you must have a Magic rating. If you're looking for a mechanically-viable method of Awakening a character during his/her lifetime, I'd like to point out that while you must purchase the Quality in character generation, there's nothing saying that a character can't have lacked that Quality prior to generation. That is to say, your PC grew up as a mundane, hit puberty (or had a massive spiritual experience, or whatever), manifested the Quality, and then became a player character. As such the Quality was never purchased outside of chargen and it all remains legal. The eternal fallback, as I mentioned earlier, is a GM who's willing to Awaken you during gameplay. Technically the GM would be allowing you to break the rules, but as long as everyone at your table is comfortable with it.... who cares? :) |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:51 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I think you missed the word "mostly", as it follows the guideline of canon while going into a situation that the limited scope of the rules does not cover. :(
That is really missing the point, in SR Magicians are from birth although they do not manifest as such. I don't think that is all described in the SR4 book though. And a person does not have a character generation phase in their life. :( |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:53 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Well, I know I sure wasn't born with my current skills and attributes. :) C'mon, separate the game mechanic from the flavor text. It all makes more sense that way.
Here, maybe this will help: Someone can be born with the genetics to be a Magician yet still lack the Magician Quality... because it hasn't been assigned to them yet by their player. |
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Jan 17 2006, 10:59 PM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
C'mon. You are the one mixing them. Which is why your paragraph makes no sense. :(
Again. :( |
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Jan 17 2006, 11:05 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The mixing was my attempt to reconcile the "I wasn't a mage until puberty, but I was genetically always a mage" thing you brought up.
I apologize for not adequately getting my point across, and I'll admit conversational defeat. Or at least make a tactical withdrawal to go do something else. ;) |
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Jan 17 2006, 11:07 PM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
There is another rational reason for the special case of that Quality not being purchased during play?
Sure, let us just drop it then. |
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Jan 18 2006, 12:29 AM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,582 |
Because of the point balance in SR4, mundanes have so many options available to them, most character concepts in that vein are viable. Edge is what makes that possible. Any mundane with a low edge is dead meat. My experience to back that is my "ubar street sam" used 4 edge in one combat to avoid a messy death. One tough battle, and a low edge character can be in a world of hurt.
What might be a more interesting discussion: Is any other race besides human worthwhile? That bonus edge is sweet. |
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