More Overpowered Spells? Options

[blalien]

So I was working on char gen with one of my players, who made a combat mage. With a Spellcasting of 6 and a Magic of 5, we noticed several spells that just seemed incredibly overpowered, specifically, Magic Fingers, Turn to Goo, and Increase Reflexes. I had thought Increase [Attribute] was overpowered but then realized I had misread the rules. Is there, again, something I'm missing here, or should I just shut up and say to myself, "If the PCs can do it, then so can the enemies?"

[Liper]

hits determine how powerful reflexes are, don't forget your good friend astral wars (which will turn off spells)

[blalien]

Yeah, but even so, combined Magic + Spellcasting + Force of 5 = 16 dice. Getting 4 hits with that is easy. I've never played Shadowrun before, so I can't really gauge what's powerful, but giving the gunslinger four passes per round that easily seems quite good.

[Tashio]

You roll Magic + Spellcasting, you don't add force.

[Oracle]

Powerfull <> Overpowered. Turn to Goo is much more strange than overpowered.

[Sphynx]

Please explain the 'overpowered' so we can explain why it's not. I can't think of any way Magic Fingers is overpowered. Increased Reflexes tends to cause drain when cast at the necessary force (4+) for maximum use, and choose between +2 to TNs while sustaining, or additional Karma Cash for the Sustaining Focus. Not sure how Turn to Goo is overpowered, but don't forget that it's not permanent...

Sphynx

[Azralon]

[Azralon]

[emo samurai]

Is Turn to Stone permanent?

[Lagomorph]

Petrify and Turn to Goo are both sustained, meaning that when you stop sustaining, the effects go away

[emo samurai]

Awwww... no insta-kill!!!

[hyzmarca]

Just get a chainsaw and behead the statue then drop the spell. Anything that instantly disables someone might as well be an insta-kill since you can kill his hoop while he is disabled.

[FrankTrollman]

Turn to Goo/Petrify is better than an instant kill because:

1. It can be used to kidnap people.
2. It can be used to transport people.
3. It can be used to protect people in dangerous situations.
4. It can substitute for a stabilization spell.
5. You have the choice of killing or not killing each target separately.

It is worse than an instant kill because:

1. Your enemies can remove its effects by dropping your wizard.
2. It requires that you sustain the spell throughout the entire combat.
3. If you get driven off, all your opponents eventually come back to life.

I think it's a fine spell, I wouldn't call it overpowered or weak. The only thing that hacks me off is the fact that they say list "cyberware" in the things not-transformed, even though cyberware that has been implanted is considered part of the living body and should transform.

-Frank

[blalien]

Alright, I get what you're saying. Now I have another question. What exactly is Force used for in spells like Increase Reflexes and Magic Fingers, which have no variable effects besides the Spellcasting test and nobody resisting the spell?

[Azralon]

[FrankTrollman]

The Force is the maximum number of hits. That's the primary limitation whether the spell is resisted or not.

-Frank

[Azralon]

[blalien]

Okay, so in summary...

For direct combat spells, you roll a Magic + Spellcasting Test vs. his Body or Willpower. If it hits, the total damage is your net hits + Force. For indirect combat spells, you roll Magic + Spellcasting vs. his Reaction. If it hits, you add your net hits to Force, then the enemy rolls Body + half Armor to resist damage.

For any other kind of spell, Force simply determines the maximum number of net hits you can score on the Magic + Spellcasting vs. his whatever.

[FrankTrollman]

Not net hits, total hits. If you cast at Force 3, only 3 of the hits on your spellcasting test count, so if their resistance test gets 3 hits, your spell doesn't work - regardless of how many 5s you actually rolled on the dice.

-Frank

[Azralon]

[Phoenix (A-Team)]

The detail about cyberware not turning to goo is a reference to SR1, where the Turn to Goo spell originated from.

VERY broken... would be the first words to escape someone's mouth if they considered all the facts.

Why? Because mages would typically "Goo" a cybersam enemy, have a fellow team member remove the cyberware components from the pile of jello, then release the spell and watch the target die in screaming agony if their cyberware kept them alive. (Imagine losing your cybertorso and then watching your inards spill to the floor around you after the spell drops. Or losing your cyber skull and having your brain exposed!) And if not, then the empty space in their bodies would simply cause them a lot of grief and agony while the mage and their team made off with the unharmed cyber-goods. Black Market cyberware markets of the SR4 era are likely to employ magicians with such a spell simply because of this fact.

I agree that if the cyberware is paid for with essence, it should be part of you and thusly be turned to mercury goo along with the rest of your body. But... somebody enjoyed the advantage/danger of having such a spell in the game. Cybersams have something all new to fear from magicians now. Forget essence, death by cyber-loss!

[Azralon]

Considering the damage to the stone/goo victim that would have to be done to successfully salvage most types of cyberware, it'd probably be more convenient just to shoot the poor guy in his transformed head. Drop the spell and let them bleed out, then cart the body to someone with medical skills.

[Phoenix (A-Team)]

I wouldn't even try with a patrified target, but the idea behind the Goo is that one can simply push through the goo with a gloved hand and pluck the 'wares right out of 'em. Pretty sickening thought if you ask me. But yeah, I'd have to agree that... aside from the risk of harming the 'wares with your bullet, a well placed one would do a good job of pacifying them. Long enough, at least, for a street doc or organ legger to make quick work of them.

[Kerberos]

The goo spell does seem overpowered to me, I mean unless your opponent is a troll then magic + spelcasting will be significantly higher than the targets body, and if you win then he's goo and can be safely dispensed with.

[Azralon]

The goo has a barrier Armor rating equal to Body + net hits, just like the stone from Petrify.

One could argue that this represents how hard it is to do lasting damage to a fluid, but since it's a "sticky, glue-like substance" that reasoning could be extended to say it's equally as hard to pull things out of the mess. Kinda like trying to pick your hair out of the wad of chewing gum stuck on your head.

You're definitely not turning anyone into nice, pliable, low-tension Jell-o and picking their cyberwhatsis out like a piece of fruit. It's a sticky mass that's dense enough to slow down bullets.