 Telescoping stocks..., + or - on conceal? |
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 Jan 19 2006, 08:27 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414  |
Yeah, I kinda knew that. It's just a pet peeve of mine with the system... That's why I came up with This. I have used this houserule to great effect in my games, with one change: Damage cannot be staged up if the spray mechanic is used, but extra successes by the shooter must be rolled off by the defender before staging the damage down. (Thanks for the advice Modesitt!) |
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Jan 19 2006, 08:31 PM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
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Jan 19 2006, 08:46 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
What are the manufacturing differences? Rifling, boaring tolerances, barrel metal??? Those things also come into play. Not all guns are created equal. Look at the rifles from Accuracy international. As a generallity, AR's have a more effective range than SMG's. As for bursts, it is more likely that you will hit because you have more rounds out there, but each successive bullet is less likely to hit than it's predecessor. I think shadowrun was a little off on this, but it is better than rolling for each bullet. (Which I think you did in SR1) Edit: I think what would ultimately satisfy you mfb, and I do not think it is a bad thing, is a specific range chart for each weapon, with modifications. It is grandular, but once you have the lookup table, it would be pretty quick. Gas venting, silencers, and extended barrels would all change the effective ranges. I think this would be really cool, but is much more work that a general blanket rule that was my preference for now. |
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Jan 19 2006, 08:51 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
rifling, tolerances, and weapon material have little to do with how far a bullet is going to travel. they're certainly not going to vary the actual range of a bullet by 500 yards, at least not at the level of off-the shelf firearms. what those factors do strongly affect is long-range accuracy.
each successive bullet isn't necessarily less likelty to hit than its predecessor. at longer ranges, especially with mechanical sights, your aiming point has a fair likelihood of being off to begin with. you actually depend on the weapon jittering a bit to spread your bullets, giving you a better chance of hitting--like using a shotgun, basically. as for satisfying me... meh, i could see that being cool, but not for a tabletop game. for a tabletop game, i'd be satisfied by simply calling a chopped-down AR an SMG. |
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Jan 19 2006, 08:55 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I'm pretty sure those effective ranges were determined based on the assumption that the M-249, unlike the M-16, was being fired from a bipod. |
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Jan 19 2006, 08:57 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
we were talking about "effective range" which you mentioned earlier was based on accuracy at those ranges. Sure a pistol will go a km, but you need a steep angle, making it inneffective.) that was why one had a more effective range than the other. |
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Jan 19 2006, 09:00 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Yeah, you did. And it sucked. On a side note, I once considered metagaming me up a run where the team had to eliminate a firearms designer from Ares who used ballistics testing to disprove causality and make a case for time travel. (i.e. Proof that the future existence of a 6th bullet changes the likelyhood of the 1st bullet hitting it's mark.) Obviously this guy had to be silenced before he made this discoverypublic and unmade reality as we know it! Then I remembered what I would do to a player who metagamed like this and banished the thought forever. (except for the random musing on DS of course ;) ) |
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Jan 19 2006, 09:15 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Did you mean cartridges instead of bullets? Bullets fired from SMGs tend to be much heavier in greater in diameter, although shorter, than those fired from ARs. For example, the US M882 9x19mm ball round has a 112gr projectile, the US M855 5.56x45mm ball round has a 62gr projectile (you can figure out the relative projectile diameters...). Out of a SMG-length barrel, the 112gr 9mm bullet leaves at ~1400fps, while the 62-grainer takes off from an M16A2 at ~3025fps. The rifle bullet has a greater sectional density and is more aerodynamically shaped, allowing it to maintain its velocity far better. Anyhow, an OA-93 pistol has a shorter effective range than an MP5A4, and it's got nothing to do with the 2.35" of extra barrel (the OA-93 has a muzzle velocity ~800fps or so greater, and the 5.56mm bullet will still be traveling faster at any given range). |
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Jan 19 2006, 09:18 PM
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#59
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
in the original M-16/M-249 post, Aku and i were discussing actual (not effective) ranges of firearms. i was proving to Aku that bullets are still fully capable of injuring and killing beyond the effective range of a given weapon. the effective range of a weapon has as much to do with how easy it is to aim the weapon as it does with how fire the bullet will actually travel. not having a stock decreases the ease with which a weapon may be aimed, thereby decreasing the weapon's effective range.
which is why i'm fine with a chopped-down AR not being able to hit a target at 500m in SR. a stocked AR can't hit a target at 900m in SR--not because the bullet doesn't go that far, but because it's impossible (in SR) to be accurate enough to hit that 900m target. if you chop the stock off an AR, your accuracy is going to decrease--and in SR, that can be translated into decreasing the effective range of the weapon to, say, those used by SMGs. the bullet is travelling just as far, it's just a lot less likely to hit--so much less likely that the system deems it impossible. if you're going to change that, you should change it for all weapons, stocked or unstocked. make a few new range categories, TNs 12, 16, and 20. |
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Jan 19 2006, 09:30 PM
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#60
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Which is all fine and good, and at this point, because i'm NOT a gun guy, i can't really back up anything im saying. I just seem to remember the book of the game saying something like "beyond the ranges listed, guns loss their effectiveness at injuring.."
Again, thats just how i remember, and half the time i dont remember my own name.... |
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Jan 19 2006, 10:54 PM
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#61
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Bah, just houserule TN 18 beyond extreme ranges (half imaging scope ratings at this range). This, of course, mans that a characfter can hit something a billion kilometers away if he has line of sight with the weapon, but the curvature of the earth will prevent that.
Shooting someone on the moon becomes a possibility until the GM declares that the bullet fell back down and hit the shooter in the head. |
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