 Hand of God V 4.0, a little too light |
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 Jan 20 2006, 04:59 PM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
Oh you are talking about converted SR3 characters. Ya they are humped if you do a literal translation into SR4. Retire 'em and get a new one, they've become roadkill on the SOTA highway. :)
This is some new "clarification" from Fanpro while I was away? I don't see anything in the 1.3 errata? |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:15 PM
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, they tend to work out fine if one does not implement additional penalties - like screwing over low essence characters even more than ever before. :D
To bad betaware is intrinsical SOTA and converting characters is officially supported. So thanks for that rash advice, but no thanks. ;)
You may want to read the 'Improving Attributes' section - it is quite clear on the subject. |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:27 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yes it is. You calculate the cost based on the natural attribute, not the value of the attribute after modifiers. Say such as the penalty to Magic of having below 6 essense? ;) P.S. That beta cyber was bleeding edge like 10 years ago, oldtimer. Vat jobs are now what is what. 8) |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:43 PM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Read again. (And sorry for inaccurate reference - p. 1164 is more accurate.) Loosing Essence changes the natural Magic Attribute - there is no way to even express a 'would-be magic attribute' in SR4. The max is reduced, though.
Nope... cutting edge was and is Deltaware - Betaware still isn't allowed for starting characters, though. |
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Jan 20 2006, 05:51 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Scope issue. You are looking in the wrong place to make that determination. The "loss" is from a "penalt[y]". This also is incidentally the how and why Vampire mages & adepts can function at all (although Initiate Grades remain a big issue for them) without constantly draining and never using their essense for attribute boosting power. It also very neatly handles the lowered max without the special one-of of altering a natural max. Deja vu all over again. :love:
I thought there was beta in SR before there was delta (which only came into being in Man & Machine)? But my lore-fu is weak, and I haven't been playing SR that long so that could easily be off. *shrug* |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:06 PM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As that place happens to be the rules, the only conlusion is that you are wrong.
There is no such thing as a virtual attribute you pay when increasing, too:
So, when loosing a point of magic, you just end up paying twice for it when restoring it. There is neither notation nor ruling for such a virtual decreased attribute in canon SR4, though it may be a nice house rule... but that would be another thread. PS: You may want to read Essence Loss again. |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:10 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Gone through it, a lot. You missed page 62 off the list. Virtual attributes? Er no, but there are "modified" attributes. All over the freaking place. |
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Jan 20 2006, 06:18 PM
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#33
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, that reference is included in 'Essence Loss'. And, surprisingly, it states that you actually lose points in magic... Vampire in fact do lose magic when starving, too.
No, there are only augmented attributes. Stop trying to claim your house-rule as canon - such things only cause confusion. |
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Jan 20 2006, 10:03 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
However without treating it like a penalty every time they yo-yo their essense they would forever lose those points of magic. In metahumans currently where there is no way to regain essense, besides becoming an Essense Drain critter, this is effectively a permanent penalty (and thus described as permanent). But with Essense Drain critters a new avenue opens up. You entirely missed this conversation the couple of times it went around? Hrmmmm, I thought someone got and posted an email from Rob clearing this up as well. But maybe not. That's going back a number of months now, and my first couple of Search attempts are coming up empty. EDIT: And on page 62 it does not say the lower Magic is "natural", it is described as having a penalty applied due to the lost essense. It is vague, and you are reading "natural" into it.
Sorry, yes the proper word is "augmented" attributes. But you are still confusing your own, problematic, interpretation of sadly vague rules with absolute "canon". |
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Jan 20 2006, 10:34 PM
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#35
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I´m thinking about using it that way. I´ve actually played very few times since the new edition came, barely gotten started. No HoG ever invoked yet. But as you said, I want to be prepared because I know how bad I would feel making judgement calls on whether a character should live or not. So is holding your thumbs a swedish expresion? Nobody heard of it? |
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Jan 21 2006, 06:43 AM
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#36
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
never heard of it. I've heard 'sitting on your hands', which is basically saying that you aren't doing jack, but 'holding your thumbs'? Is that some sort of reference to video games and gettign read y to jam the buttons, or just... something random? At least everyone that's seen Boondock Saints knows the 'rule of thumb' |
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Jan 21 2006, 09:19 AM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Alpha and Beta were introduced in Street Samurai Catalog (first splatbook for first edition) and Delta was introduced in Cybertechnology (mid-to-late second edition era). |
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Jan 21 2006, 12:40 PM
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#38
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I checked up on the thumb-holding. It´s old folklore. Today it´s an expression used when you´re wishing someone luck ("I´ll hold my thumbs for you") or when you´re hoping for something to happen yourself. It can be combined with a gesture (folding your fingers over the thumb with one or both hands), sort of like giving thumbs up.
Originaly it was appearently thought that the act of holding thumbs prevented the demons of bad luck from causing mischief. The harder you held the more difficult it would be for the demons to get loose. It was said to work better if you did it for someone else, and better yet if many people did it for the same person. So people (children still do it) would actually physicly hold their thumbs really hard when something they hoped for was about to happen—like for instance the outcome of a lottery or a competition. |
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Jan 21 2006, 01:11 PM
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#39
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
sort of like crossing your fingers then. I'd assume that one was everywhere, but now, who knows eh?
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Jan 21 2006, 01:39 PM
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#40
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Here you cross your fingers when you´re telling a lie. I suppose it´s making up for the sin according to some old superstition.
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Jan 21 2006, 02:09 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
In Denmark we do both. |
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Jan 22 2006, 10:22 AM
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#42
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. There are two edges. There is the stat and then there is a translucent SR3 style edge pool. The two are tied together since the edge pool is always equal to the edge stat. However, the difference is fairly obvious in some ways. Edge pool can be used up but it does refresh. Edge stat can't be used up. If you have Edge Stat 8 and Edge Pool 8 (1) you still roll 8 extra dice if you choose to throw in that last point of edge pool. Perhaps, instead of attacking the stat we should attack the pool directly.
But there is also negative augmentation. It is possible for an augmented attribute to be less than the base atribute, by canon. Decrease Attribute spell. |
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Jan 22 2006, 09:33 PM
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#43
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed they do - as soon as they drop below 6.
As it isn't Augmented per defitinion, it is.
Indeed, which would be noted the same way any other augmented attribute would - in brackets, behind the normal/natural value. |
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Jan 23 2006, 04:58 AM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
If this is true, then most vampires would burn out as soon as they're created (average vampire has Magic 3, and when first created, they have Essence 1), thereby loosing their ability to 'feed', and expiring within the next month from Essence loss. I'd say that Critters with Essence Loss are immune to Magic loss from Magic loss from low Essence. It's the most simple way to run things. |
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Jan 23 2006, 05:02 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
for those creatures I always tied thier magic attribute to thier essence.
essence 3 vampire? magic 3 essence 12 vampire? magic 12... |
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Jan 23 2006, 01:39 PM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeahs, that's more or less what Essence Loss implies:
Indeed this is a very strang ruling. On the other hand, even a vampire with no magic is technically able to feed using only charisma. |
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