 Wired Reflexes and Hot Sim, Are they cumulative? |
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 Jan 21 2006, 03:44 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251  |
Players asked me this during chargen today. I told him no, but now am not so sure. And what about the expensive but essence friendly bioware version? The Horror |
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Jan 21 2006, 05:21 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
I think "no" is the right answer based on the Wired Reflexes description that says they don't stack with any other initiative enhancement.
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Jan 21 2006, 05:38 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
That's what I thought. However, that brings to mind something else. If you can apply Wired Reflexes during AR but not during VR modes, then don't you actually run slower in cold VR than using AR with Wired Reflexes rating 2-3?
The Horror edit: that just sounds plain stupid. Don't think I'll won't allow Wired Reflexes to be used for anything related to hacking period. |
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Jan 21 2006, 05:59 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 211 |
Reflex mods should apply to AR, because you're not actually "in" cyberspace, you're manipulating keys and icons on a keyboard or holographic display. Having faster reactions would be helpful there. The downside is the need to spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of nuyen on implants and surgery that could be better spent on commlink upgrades and high-end programs.
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Jan 21 2006, 06:14 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
cold sim also still gets the +2 dice bonus, and the much shorter times on extended tests (for example, breaking into a system).
thus, you would still want to go cold sim for many tests in the matrix, even if you had wired 3. |
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Jan 22 2006, 12:54 AM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
When you are in VR, you use Matrix Initiative. No where in the equations for figuring Matrix initiative, is there a place to plug in the values for enhancements to your physical initiative. If you want bonuses to your Matrix Initiative, you have to turn to programs like Reality Filter.
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Jan 22 2006, 02:02 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Just saying, rules state when rigging a drone for example, you use your own attributes ... this basically makes not much sense, but it is in the rules.
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Jan 22 2006, 02:56 AM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Are you saying that Matrix initiative doesn't count as "your own"?
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Jan 22 2006, 05:55 AM
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#9
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Matrix initiative is most certainly not 'your own'. It is your persona's. The difference is subtle but profound.
The rule about using PC attributes while rigging brings up other consequences, however. Specifically, the melee adept duck taping a knife to a microdrone and obliterating people from miles away. |
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Jan 22 2006, 07:43 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
What do you guys think of this? If you are using AR, you can only have 1 IP per turn devoted to using the matrix. Any other IP you have can be used for real world stuff. Example: The Hacker has Wired Reflexes level 2, for 3 IP. On his first action he uses AR to initiate an extended test. On the 2nd and 3rd IP his extended test is still going on beyond his control in an open window and he can't do anything else about it. So he can use that 2nd and 3rd IP to do meat body things like firing a gun, running away, etc. Next turn he can get back to his extended AR task and spend one of his IP dealing with it. So the limit on the number of actions for AR is 1 IP per turn. To get more he has to go to cold/hot sim. The Horror |
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Jan 22 2006, 10:34 AM
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#11
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I don´t think its necessary to modify the rules in this case. The +2 dice should be a sufficient incentive to any hacker, and the samurai should have at least a sporting chance to survive cyber combat.
And hyzmarca: ain´t that duct tape? ;) |
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Jan 22 2006, 10:43 AM
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#12
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Common misconception. When the United States military commissioned a new waterproof tape the result was nicknamed duck tape becuase water rolled off of it like a duck's back, as they say.
Duct tape is rather inaccurate since the tape cannot be used on ducts. Despite being waterproof it is not airproof. I have no idea why people call it duct tape. It was probably just a mispronounciation or typo that became common usage. The problem is difficult to correct for legal reasons. Although the patent for this particular type of waterproof tape expired ages ago, there is still trademark on the name 'duck tape' which had come to identify a specific brand. Thus, other manufacturers call their tape 'duct tape' to avoid trademark infringment. |
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Jan 22 2006, 12:17 PM
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#13
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
:love: :notworthy:
Learn something new each day! If you weren´t already in my sig... |
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Jan 22 2006, 12:45 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184 |
I just looked it up, pg. 239, and you're right: "A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made using the rigger’s own skill and attributes." I think it really should read: "... own skill and mental attributes." What is considered a mental attribute is debatable, but Body and Strength are definately not. EDIT: I noticed drones/vehicles don't have a strength attribute... silly... some need it. |
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Jan 22 2006, 02:19 PM
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#15
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, while i dont have the SR4 book, i kinda recall the old rules using body to represent strength unless the vehicle had arms, and then the arms had their own strength score...
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Jan 22 2006, 02:37 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184 |
Yeah, we need strength scores for drones that have anything resembling arms for SR4 (like the Steel Lynx). Unfortunately it's not there because they really intended the rigger to use his own strength score, which is silly. |
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Jan 22 2006, 08:43 PM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
huh, i dont get the logic of that.
still, how about just figuring the strength as if they where cyberlimbs? i recall the older rules allowed vehicle limbs to have cyberlimb mods ;) |
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Jan 23 2006, 12:19 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
our house rule for riggers is that any physical stat that is needed by the drone (like agility for infiltration) is replaced by the mental stat just like mages when they are astral. Our only exception to this is reaction because it seems to be logically both a physical and mental stat, though I could see it being replaced by intuition just as easily.
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Jan 23 2006, 01:17 AM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
There is a company that hold the trademark for Duck Tape http://www.ducktapeclub.com/downloads/wk_history.asp and though it was born from military applications, it's first main civilian use was for air ducts. http://www.3m.com/intl/CA/english/centres/...nformation.html Notice the Professional HVAC product. That stands for Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning. |
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Jan 23 2006, 01:40 AM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,184 |
That could work for agility, but what about strength? Having the rigger's charisma become the drone's strength doesn't make any more sense than using his strength in the first place. :wobble: Regardless of whether the riggger's Agility or Logic would be used while the drone is rigged, I think it should be somehow influenced by the drone's handling attrbute in some way. EDIT: Sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll stop now. |
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Jan 23 2006, 02:59 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
That's cool. I'm done with the original purpose of the thread anyhow. Now I'm really interested in the rigger issue. The Horror |
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Jan 26 2006, 02:18 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Actually, the mental attributes are defined. Rigger rules need a refit. Anyone ever tried sensor targeting? |
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Jan 29 2006, 03:47 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
The whole reason for "Jumping into" a vehicle is that your character's attributes and skills CAN be better than the drones, and she gets to replace the drones attributes and skills with her own in vehicle tests. Compare: ----------------- Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft (see p. 239) ratings for all necessary tests, and act on their own Initiative (see p. 239). The sample devices table lists drone as average with a device rating of 3 (p 214). This means the standard values for Response, Signal, Firewall, and Pilot is 3. All the drones in the gear section list pilot 3. System serves as the limiter for the maximum rating a program can be run on that node (a higher rating program functions at the System rating instead), as well as the number of subscriptions allowed (System x 2, see Linking and Subscribing, p. 212). System also determines the number of programs that may be run before the system is overloaded and Response is affected (see Response). Pilot functions as the system in a drone. Maneuver Autosoft: Drone rolls Pilot + Maneuver for vehicle tests (page 240). With a Rating 3 Maneuver Autosoft a drone rolls 6 dice for vehicle tests. Drone Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two extra initiative passes (p239). There is a hardware upgrade table (page 240) that shows you can give your drone up to response 6. Pilot rating + response for a drone is 3 + response or 6 to 9. ----------------- Jumping into Drones (p239). A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger's Initiative... Any tests are made using the rigger's own skill and attributes. Character Initiative = Reaction + Intuition which can be as high as 15 with Reaction 6, Intuition 6, and wired reflexes or synaptic boosters. To make a vehicle test, the character rolls Reaction + the appropriate vehicle skill +/- the vehicle's handling. (page 159). This can be as high as 15 with Reaction 6, Pilot [appropriate vehicle] 6, and wired reflexes or synaptic boosters. The Gear section lists vehicle handling values ranging from -3 to +3 A character can have up to 4 initiative passes. When observing through a drone, a rigger uses Perception. A riggers Perception can be as high as 6. A drone acting on its own uses the Clearsight autosoft which can only be as good as the pilot. Of course, a rigger can get extra skill die via reflex recorders, control rigs, spells, adept powers, etc. ----------------- Note1: The only character attributes used above are Reaction and Intuition, one physical and one mental. House rules are not needed. Note2: Reaction + skill is the very same test a character uses when he is physically piloting a vehicle. The only difference between sitting behind the wheel of your Westwind, and remotely piloting a rigger adapted version is the observation. A remote rigger uses Sensor + Perception, and a "driver" uses Intuition + Perception. ----------------- My understanding is that anything done using a vehicle or drone is a vehicle test. Infiltrating with a drone would be a vehicle test using infiltration instead of pilot, where maximum infiltration is limited to the vehicle skill [pilot vehicle]. |
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Jan 29 2006, 05:19 PM
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#24
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
They don't use physical initiative when jumping into drones. Just like when rigging a vehicle, your initiative depends on whether you're running hot or cold sim, wired reflexes wont help you at all in that regard. But maybe you're only refering to the bonus to reaction and how that helps you get more dice for your vehicle skill. I wouldn't necessarily allow that either. I think you're right concerning the "using your own attributes" deal. I believe that line only implies that the rigger uses their own skills for tests and therefor uses the linked attributes for those tests. This seems ok to me, because having some other attribute than agility and reaction link to the tests you make would be more trouble than it's worth. When it comes to strength test someone refered to, that's just a silly complaint. If you give a drone arms and use them to lift things you'll just have to decide what strength they have. If an adept tried to do that drone-with-knife stunt someone mentioned, I would just limit the melee skill by the pilot skill, simple as that. |
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Jan 29 2006, 06:02 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
The current rigger rules reflect a MAJOR refit. What kind of sensor targeting are you referring, and what is your beef? Are you complaining about the complexity of the rule, the suckiness of your vehicles sensor, or the evasiveness of your target? The rules are simple. Passive targeting means the gunner uses the vehicles sensors to aim, and then shoots. The attack role uses Sensor + Gunnery dice. Active targeting means the gunner tries to lock on to the target first using a sensor test. If he succeeds in locking on to the target, then Tom Cruise exclaims "I've got tone!', and can shoot. If he fails to lock on, then he either doesn't shoot, or reverts to passive targeting. The targeting test uses Sensor + Perception. What sucks. 1. Sensors are designed to detect the "signature" of other vehicles, and suck against low emission vehicles and organic targets. 2. If the target is attempting to avoid detection, then locking on becomes an opposed test. Note: Infiltration (Vehicle) is a skill specialization. It does not default to Infiltration. How many NPCs have this specialization? How many PCs? Answer: The Drone Rigger and the Smuggler sample characters don't even have Infiltration without the specialization. Conclusion: Locking on to another vehicle is easy unless the target is trying to evade. Then it is the attacker's Sensor + Perception vs the target's Reaction +/- Handling [+ infiltration(vehicle) if the target has that specialization, or -1 if he does not and defaults]. Locking on to Sydney Bristow dressed in a chameleon suit is harder. |
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