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 Sniper rifle power to high vs hvy machine gun |
 Jan 29 2006, 10:02 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Raygun puts the .50 BMG at 14D, as do I. 14S is certainly better for it than 10S.
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Jan 29 2006, 10:59 PM
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#27
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Meh. Not all of us worry so much about it. It works in the game. No biggie. :) |
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Jan 30 2006, 02:46 AM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
In SR, sniper rifles use different (and better) ammo than HMGs do. Live with it.
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Jan 30 2006, 03:37 AM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
HOW DO FIREARMS REALISM!!!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!
No, but seriously. The wonky damage codes in SR3 really infuriated me. I really like Raygun's system better, or anyone who thinks of house rules to fix the wonky damage codes. I'd be in favor of getting rid of a lot of the "creative" ammo types in favor of getting more "correct" stats for each gun and sticking to real ammo types such as FMJ, JHP, hydro-shock, or whatever. If they had done that for SR4 it would have been absolutely badass, but of course they didn't. So now we have situations where .50 cal machine guns are strangely ineffective compared to NATO 7.62 rifles. Duuurrrhhhh.... |
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Jan 30 2006, 04:08 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
iirc, in Feilds of Fire, the brret is listed as requiring a special type of ammo, I will look it up to be sure though.
I have always thought of the hight\er damage code as having greater penitration capability. Example: Regular sword: (str+1 )M Katana or monosword (sharper edge) (Str+3)M is the damage code off? Prolly, but it has rarely come up for us. HMGs aren't found often. |
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Jan 30 2006, 04:32 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
no offense but in sr4 the damage codes are already pretty lethal enough, making the weapons higher, while definatly "more real" really wouldn't do much balance wise and make the games fire fights (sorry it's a trademark like matrix gun fights) over quickly for one side or the other or both and a whole lot messier.
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Jan 30 2006, 03:10 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Since apparently my earlier attempt at sarcasm failed: That just makes no fucking sense at all, so those of us who understand how firearms work and value reason decide to ignore it. |
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Jan 31 2006, 03:36 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Oh? And why is that? Just because modern sniper rifles use similar (or smaller) ammo to HMGs, doesn't mean that SR sniper rifles do. SR sniper rifles are probably more like that 20mm anti-vehicular rifle linked to earlier, but with more advanced recoil compensation technology.
The SR3 core rulebook supports me on this. Sniper rifles use different ammo to HMGs. Therefore, sniper rifle ammo is different. Since sniper rifles deal more damage than HMGs out of the box, sniper rifle ammo is better than HMG ammo. |
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Jan 31 2006, 03:53 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
I really don't think that SR sniper rifles are 20mm, especially considering that most 20mm rifles tend to weigh 100+ lbs. Not exactly easy to carry, even for a troll.
Anti-Tank Rifles Scroll down to the bottom, and check out the Solothurn and the Lahti. (I also recommend reading Unintended Consequenses by John Ross, but that's a whole 'nother topic :wink: ) I would consider the 20mm to be in the assault cannon catagory, personally. Besides, how you would you explain the Ranger Arms SM-3 being able to disassemble and fit into a "standard briefcase"? |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:55 AM
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#35
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Sweet! Is it powered by nuclear space monkeys? |
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Jan 31 2006, 05:14 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
I doubt that, and I'm serious. It would probably involve shock-absorbing materials of some description, though, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors (which, I'll point out, might not bear any resemblence to today's sound supressors). |
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Jan 31 2006, 05:19 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
On to which you could then add gas vent systems and barrel mounted silencers? (Bearing of course, little-to-no resemblance to modern silencers...) |
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Jan 31 2006, 05:24 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Well, in game mechanics, a gas vent is useless for a sniper rifle, because it's a semi-automatic weapon, and only ever accumalates 1 point of recoil anyway.
In the game world, a gas vent could prove useful, and a sound suppressor could work by actively causing destructive interferance (by the gunsmith in question taking a recording of the gun firing, and adding on speakers that project the opposite noise- this would have the added advantage of negating the noise of the firearm's mechanism, which conventional silencers don't do). |
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Jan 31 2006, 05:29 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Yup, nothing like having stereo speakers mounted to your 20mm sniper rifle... :D
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Jan 31 2006, 05:48 AM
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#40
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Dang. I've always thought that super high-tech stuff that defies all logic should always be powered by nuclear space monkeys. Just has a certain... anneau des singes de l'espace to it.
I don't think you're giving enough credit to nuclear space monkeys here, nick. They're way smaller than "shock-absorbing materials of some description, possibly combined with gas vents of some description- maybe built into integral sound suppressors", require very little maintenance and are a great ice breaker at parties. Dare I submit that nuclear space monkeys are a far more versatile technology! Not only that, but their poo is made of depleted uranium. Hah! So there. I hate to break it to you, but once again, I are won teh intarnet. :grinbig:
Are you the same dude who brought up this hideously ludicrous idea some months (possibly years) ago? I seem to recall it being brought up here before. Well, supposing not, may I officially welcome you to 1990. Anything else you'd like to discuss? Nuclear space monkeys perhaps? |
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Jan 31 2006, 06:19 AM
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#41
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Who doesn't want speakers mounted on their sniper rifles? I mean, just imagine the cross-platform technological possibilities. Not busy shooting someone? Jam out to some funky tunes! Shooting someone? Project anti-sound to muffle the gunshot. Done shooting someone? Play cool action movie music as you walk away in slo-mo.
Awesome. |
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Jan 31 2006, 06:24 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Critias, I worship you.
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Jan 31 2006, 06:51 AM
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#43
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Is this actual slow-motion or just the shooter moving very slowly while everyone else walks by at full speed?
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Jan 31 2006, 07:15 AM
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#44
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
That all depends on the quality of the chip he's slotting to make himself think he's an action movie star.
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Jan 31 2006, 02:57 PM
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#45
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
IIRC, the barret does still call for its own special ammo at least. Not that it can justify that kind of increase on that merrit.
I agree, HMG = 1/2" and should turn trolls into paste. *Edit* Wow... thats... ornate for 1988... I wonder if it would actually work. This post has been edited by Lindt: Jan 31 2006, 02:59 PM |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:17 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
Just my :nuyen: 0.02:
I don't know much about sniper rifles in Shadowrun, but I do know something about real-life ones. Since both the Barrett M-82A1 and the Browning M2HB are chambered for the .50 Browning Machine Gun (".50 BMG" for short, or "12.7 X 99mm Browning", for those of you accustomed to the Metric System), the ammunition is interchangeable. The problem is that the ammunition used in the Barrett is (usually) match-grade (although "sniper-grade" might be a better term), while that used in the M2HB is not. (As Raygun's site mentions, match-grade ammunition can either be factory-made or handloaded; it's manufactured to much tighter tolerances than conventional factory ammunition--especially when compared to normal military-grade ammunition, most of which is just to ensure that the weapon for which it's made functions well and is reasonably accurate.) All other things being equal, a Barrett firing conventional .50 BMG ammunition will suffer a slight loss of accuracy at extreme range (over 1,500 meters, I expect), but it shouldn't make much of a difference, except against a small target. (Chances are, though, that regardless of where a man is hit by a bullet from a .50-BMG-caliber weapon, he's either going to die or be permanently crippled. Even though they don't expand, those bullets are capable of doing a LOT of damage.) Also, while the M2HB is primarily an area-effect weapon, it IS capable of astonishing feats of long-range accuracy. During the Vietnam War, legendary Marine sniper Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock, II, killed a Viet Cong operative at 2,500 yards (2,286 meters) with a single shot from a modified M2HB, fitted with an Unertl 8-power telescopic sight on a special mount, which had been buit to his specifications by members of the Navy's Construction Battalion ("Seabees"). The 'scope was the same one Hathcock used on his issued .30-'06-caliber Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle, re-zeroed at 2,500 yards for the big .50. Although the weapon was still mounted upon its tripod, the rear of the heavy machine gun had been detached from the T&E (Traverse and Elevation) portion of the mount, and emplaced in sandbags to prevent it from moving. The Viet Cong in question had been bending over or stooping--Hathcock later speculated that he was tying his shoes, cleaning his teeth, or something of the sort. Whatever the truth of it was, Hathcock's shot caught the VC guerrilla under the chin just as he stood up. The 750-grain (1.7-ounce, or 26.5 grams) full-metal-jacketed bullet virtually tore the man's head from his shoulders, killing him instantly. A similar incident, at a range reportedly in excess of 3,000 yards (2,743 Meters), reportedly occurred during the Korean War, but the exact details (such as the sniper's name) have been lost to history. End lecture. :) --Foreigner --Foreigner |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:30 PM
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#47
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
You mean the suppressor? Absolutely. Witness the inventor's initials and how they eerily coincide with the name of this company (don't miss the videos). One of the top two suppressor manufacturers for the US military. An article for you, Foreigner. |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:33 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This might be true when speaking of heavy sniper/anti-material rifles outside of the military, but there is no .50 BMG match-grade ammunition standard for the US military. In the US Army, the M107 fires the same ammunition as the M2HB: Mk 211 Mod 0, M33 Ball, M20 API-T, M17 Tracer, M8 API, etc. Because of the muzzle break, the M107 cannot fire the M903 and M962 SLAP and SLAP-T rounds, but otherwise the ammo is exactly the same. It is true that this reduces the long range accuracy of the rifle, but so far the couple of thousand such rifles have not prompted the DoD to issue special match ammo for them. |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:47 PM
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#49
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Mk211 MOD 0 is very much considered "match grade", Aus. In addition to it being an HEIAP projectile, the bullet has a relatively high BC and Raufoss takes a lot of trouble in production as far as consistency is concerned. Mk211 MOD 0 was designed especially for use in the M82A1A (and now the M107 for the Army) as opposed to the M2, where its cost makes it prohibitive to use.
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Jan 31 2006, 04:52 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
My bad. Still, NAmmo does claim the the current MP rounds were designed with HMGs in mind: "Furthermore, the new family of Multipurpose and Armour Piercing rounds (originally designed for the .50 cal M2 machine gun) have a unique penetration and incendiary effects." (http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/12,7mm/127mm.html)
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