 Power Points for PysAds?, ??? |
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 Jan 31 2006, 03:09 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-February 05 Member No.: 7,109  |
I'm getting into SR4 and I'm converting my old character to the new game but there appears to be something missing from the PhysAd section. I tried searching this board, but couldn't find anything.
In previous editions (specifically 3rd) you could buy a power point for your Adept without Initiating (20 Karma). That is missing from the new game and I would like to know if this was an oversight or it was intentional. If it's intentional, I was hoping someone could comment on why. Powers are to Adepts as spells are to mages. You can only increase your Magic attribute so far and initiation becomes too expensive the farther you go. Mages can have low magic and as many spells as they like, but Adepts no longer can. Is there a specific reason that they changed it to tie adept abilities so closely to the Magic attribute? Caveats : I'm happy with Shadowrun overall and I realize I can try to convince my GM to make a house rule but I was looking for some commentary. I'm mostly annoyed because it cuts the legs out from under the character that I was playing. He is deeply distrustful of magic and just works to increase his "natural" abilities without all the mumbo-jumbo. I can't do that now without initiating and given his attitudes, it's not something he would consider. I can't really make a new character because we have a tight-knit crew of runners and it would be weird to have someone up and vanish. This in addition to the reduced power points to begin with (due to lower Magic) Anyone else notice this? Chris |
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Jan 31 2006, 03:26 AM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Gone. That was a stopgap thing in SR3, done to allow Adepts to advance at all until Magic In The Shadows came out. |
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Jan 31 2006, 03:29 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,185 |
Let me get this straight...he's an adept, but he is 'deeply mistrustful of magic'? Do tell.
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Jan 31 2006, 03:46 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, initiation doesn't have to be a consciously mystical event. a bookish, studious mage with no time for all that mumbo-jumbo might initiate during a week-long cram session for his thaum final, or when he achieves his masters and then his PhD. |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:08 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
And for a PhysAd, initiation might mean some hardcore training and deep meditation, possibly with the help of a martial arts sensei (who might also be Awakened). Whether or not this is done as a montage with 80s rock in the background is up to you. :D
But seriously. I played a Physical Adept Samurai-Wannabe martial artist type who likewise would not have wanted any hocus-pocus, and he still initiated. In SR3, initiation was better than the "20 karma for a Power Point" rule in every way, because you got a Power Point, increased Magic Rating, and a metamagic power. (And a combat adept with centering for his combat skills will certainly find it advantageous.) Anyway, in SR4, your Magic starts at 0, not at 6. It's not until you've bought it up to 6 that you need to start initiating at all to raise the cap. |
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Jan 31 2006, 04:24 AM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. Montages with 80s rock are mandatory. -Frank |
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Jan 31 2006, 10:10 AM
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#7
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
I must admit that I liked Phys ads being able to buy power points alongside initiation. I think they should be pricey and the number you get limited but as it stands after a while even with initation they lag horribly behind sammies in power scale. Okay later on they kick ass but that requires huge magic.
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Jan 31 2006, 02:11 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-February 05 Member No.: 7,109 |
Well, it goes something like this. A ganger and his crew had an influx of mages/shamen join their otherwise mundane gang. They were allowed in due to common ethnic background (all Carribbean League). The Mages weren't happy with the way things were being run and staged an ambush/coup against the mundanes. My character (who believed himself to be mundane) was the only survivor and swore revenge. It turns out that the ambush was a catalyst to awaken him to the Somatic path. He also swears revenge against the "new" gang. He's not very bright and he doesn't trust magic, but he realizes that he's got new powers. So, he stays away from any mumbo jumbo and just focuses on training. Net result in game terms: low magic, no initiation, but lots of Karma spent on Power Points. I realize that I should have separated out the rules query from my personal case. I think the inability to increase your Adept powers is a flaw in the game. It just so happens that I have a character this affects so I care about the flaw. If I didn't have this character, it would still be a flaw; it just wouldn't matter to me as much. Chris |
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Jan 31 2006, 02:22 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
Maybe when your character realize that what he does is real magic, he accept it, along with some psichich/mental negatives qualities caused by the "shock"...
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Jan 31 2006, 02:24 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-February 05 Member No.: 7,109 |
I suppose I should have been clearer about the problem. It basically boils down to the view that Adept powers are the same as Mage spells. An adept learns Killing Blow, a mage learns Powerball. An adept learns Traceless Walk, a mage learns Invisibility, etc.
A mage with low magic can learn as many spells as he wants - the entire grimoire even. An adept has built-in limits on what he can do because he can't have low magic and lots of little powers. Is there a reason why there shouldn't be an adept equivalent to the low magic, many spells mage? The fact that you can only invest as many points into a power as you have points in Magic is the limiter. It's even more restrictive than the mage's limit. Mages can cast spells above their magic attribute for physical drain if they choose. Adepts cannot have a power greater than their magic attribute at all. So a Magic 3 adept could have Increased Reflexes at 1 or 2 (costing 2 or 3 Power Points) but could not have it at 3 since it costs 5. He can't reach the heights of power because he doesn't have the magic to back it up, but there shouldn't be any reason for him not to have several enhanced senses and couple of minor skill improvements and minor increased reflexes (etc.) for a total number of power points greater than their magic attribute. It's the same as the 3 Magic mage with many spells - lots of flexibility, not much power. It bugs me that Adept powers are inconsistent like this. I realize that you can increase your magic attribute to learn more powers, but what would you think if your mage had to increase his Magic attribute to learn more spells? If you were unable to learn any more spells until you initiated? Does anyone know a good way to contact the developers to ask them about this? Chris |
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Jan 31 2006, 02:39 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
"Does anyone know a good way to contact the developers to ask them about this?"
I really don't know; but I understand tour point. And it is really sad... ... The kind of saddnes that make you furious... |
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Jan 31 2006, 02:48 PM
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#12
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Aren't a lot of Adept powers "Always On", which makes them a bit different then spells? Plus, they don't get disrupted like spells do.
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Jan 31 2006, 03:06 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
I'm a fairly staunch supporter of the PPs = Magic rule. I personally believe allowing the old SR3 BBB rules (20 karma per PP) and the initiation rules together is MADNESS. In fact, I hate buying PPs straight up for karma. I'd much rather pay for the initiations.
After a while your adept is akin to a demi-god. At Grade 6 and assuming full Magic, you have 12 PPs of simultaneously activated abilities that cannot be dispelled. How you use those 12 PPs is up to your imagination. But suffice it to say, the adept can be quite the monster. Adepts grow slowly, but when they do, they do so in spurts, with large steps. By Grade 3 you're at 9 Magic and 3 Metamagics, and that's just scary. |
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Jan 31 2006, 03:09 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
^^^ Excellent point...
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Jan 31 2006, 05:33 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-February 05 Member No.: 7,109 |
If I understand you correctly, Abschalten, you feel that the ability to buy Power Points directly makes adepts too powerful, correct? I'm not trying to make a straw-man argument, so if I've misunderstood you, please correct me. In the meantime I will address the mechanical costs to power and hope that it answers your concern.
For the sake of this example, I will assume that a Power Point will cost 20 Karma as it did in SR3. IIRC the cost to increase attributes is 4*New Level but I have a nagging feeling that it might be 3. I'll have to look that up later. I will change the cost to 3 for the purposes of my point and see if that changes the result. To take a Magic 1 adept and increase him to Magic 6, Initiation 6 will cost you: Magic Attribute: (2+3+4+5+6) x 4 = 80 Karma Initiation 13+16+19+22+25+28 = 123 Karma So the total cost to increase your Magic attribute from 1 to 12 (for 11 more power points) is 203. If it costs 3 per attribute, this costs drops to 183. To buy 11 additional power points at 20 Karma each would cost 220 Karma. That is to say that it costs *more* to increase your power by buying power points directly. This isn't counting the other benefits of having a higher Magic attribute as well as the metamagic techniques you learn along the way. If you have 200 Karma to spend, you will make your character more powerful by initiating and buying up the Magic attribute than you would buying the points directly. If buying the points directly is inferior to the Magic+Initiation route, why should it be prohibited? What mechanical benefit does buying them directly provide that needs to be avoided? Chris |
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Jan 31 2006, 08:50 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Ask them what? If you can add a rule for buying a Power Point? Because I'll bet my favourite comfy chair that FanPro isn't going to errata the core SR4 book to add that ability. I'll even go so far to to wager they aren't going to make it a standard rule in Street Magic. There is a possibility someone at FanPro will suffer a brain fart and put it into Street Magic as a possible optional rule. Of course then you'd need the approval of the person you should be talking to to start with. Your GM. A GM doesn't need FanPro approval to add, remove, or change rules used at your table. |
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Jan 31 2006, 09:10 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
FYI, the rule only sort of existed in SR3, anyway. From the FAQ:
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Jan 31 2006, 10:08 PM
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#18
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
If you are already at 6, the cost of that additional power point skyrockets.
Initiation grade: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Karma 13 16 19 22 25 28 (In SR3 Karma applied to initiation included +1 to MA for each grade without additional cost) Magic Attribute: 7 8 9 10 11 12 Karma: 21 24 27 30 33 36 Total Cost in SR4 34 40 46 52 58 64 (per power point) So in SR4 it is far more expensive to get that additional Power Point than the 20 karma rule in SR3 [edit] Sorry. formatting seems to go south after the post is saved |
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Jan 31 2006, 10:34 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
I'm confused. In SR4, initiation increases the upper limit of the character's Magic attribute, but the karma for increasing the Magic attribute itself must be paid separately and in addition to that. Either you are not factoring that in or I am misunderstanding the point of your example. P.S. Improving an attribute costs 3 per attribute. |
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Jan 31 2006, 10:37 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Adept powers advancement is somewhat curbed in SR4 to keep them somewhat in line with implanted mundanes, although they have no theoretical limit. They are still behind Magicians, even though the Magicians pay the same cost to advance Magic. Partially because without Street Magic or creating your own metamagic there isn't as much value in Initiation for Adepts.
But I don't think making advancement easier for Adepts is the best way to go about evening that out, because you would then leave the mundanes in the dust very quickly. Unless you want to make you game more magic centered. |
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Jan 31 2006, 10:43 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
EDIT
Nevermind. I didn't realise that was his own house rule. Still I don't exactly understand what he is doing with the math. Maybe I don't want to know, because I think the extra cost for power points beyond 6 is a good thing. |
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Jan 31 2006, 10:47 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
That's because you need to utilize a fixed width font. Voila.
* I make no claims to the accuracy of the above, simply stating that's how you make a block of monotype text. |
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Feb 1 2006, 12:14 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 22-February 05 Member No.: 7,109 |
Hmm... Ok a couple of things. First - it wasn't a house rule as far as SR3 was concerned. It was in the main book and nothing took it out later. Besides, it made sense. Second - I didn't realize that you needed to increase your magic in addition to Initiation. Yowza will that be expensive! Magic increase chart:
What I was hoping for was some thoughts from the developers about why Adepts reach a wall at some point where further advancement is prohibitively expensive. As it stands, I think it was a poor decision. I do appreciate you all sticking around this long. It's at least clarified some minor rule points, so thanks for your patience. Chris |
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Feb 1 2006, 12:25 AM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Because everyone else reaches a wall past which they cannot advance at all. Having a 6 is a much bigger deal than it used to be. Having a couple of strategic 6s can allow you to regularly succeed at tasks normal people cannot even attempt. And so the ability to exceed 6 - even for prohibitive costs - is itself a major deal in 4ed Shadowrun. -Frank |
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Feb 1 2006, 12:29 AM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
As TinkerGnome pointed out, that is not entirely true. It was a stop gap measure, and intended to be made obsolete by Magic In The Shadowns
Those are the correct costs. I thought you were making up news rules, not just confused.
With the fixed cap on Skills and the other Attributes the cost increase was critical to keep Magicians, and to a lesser extent Technomancers, from totally blowing out the other types of characters. Even Adepts to some extent. Adepts don't advance in magical power as quickly as Magicians. But the problem isn't Adepts being too slow, it is that Magicians are still too fast compared to the others. |
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