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> Half of texas?, how did mexico do it?
ChuckRozool
post Feb 2 2006, 01:26 AM
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Ok i recently got back into running the shadows again, we are four sessions into our, uh, campaign(?).
Now because of this i was looking over the history again just for the heck of it, when i come to the part about mexico (aztlan) taking half of texas. So i'm like, 'what the hell is that all about? How is that even possible?'. Now maybe it's because i'm a texan, so naturally i am bias, but come on.
Does anyone have some knowledge perhaps i didn't see...

I'm mean given the history of texas and several other factors this is kinda hard to belive.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Feb 2 2006, 01:27 AM
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Stupid politicians and blood spirits.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 2 2006, 01:45 AM
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Quite a bit of military power was lost when the USA broke up. While Texas would have almost certainly been able to reapproperiate the some equipment for their own miliary the overall reduction in military effectiveness would have be staggering. Certainly, Mexico could beat Texas in a traditional ground war. Remember the Alamo. Aztlan's only problem would be guerrilla resistance and by then the populace would have been so apathetic as to not care if Hitler's Reanimated Head made their laws.
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Squinky
post Feb 2 2006, 01:53 AM
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Texans are some pretty scary folk....I would imagine a large quantity of "minute-men" type groups because of the large quanity of civilian guns around...
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ChuckRozool
post Feb 2 2006, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE
Quite a bit of military power was lost when the USA broke up. While Texas would have almost certainly been able to reapproperiate the some equipment for their own miliary the overall reduction in military effectivness would have be so staggering. Certainly, Mexico could beat Texas in a traditional ground war. Remember the Alamo. Aztlan's only problem would be geurilla resistance and by then the populace would have been so apathetic as to not care if Hitler's Reanimated Head made their laws.


that makes a bit of sense but you still have to take into account the fact that (in no particular order):
- currently texas has about 104,000 soldiers in the armed forces, that's the third largest amount with california being the 1st. When the split happens i would assume that 2/3 if not 3/4 of the texans in the armed forces are going to chose the confederacy.

- There are currently 3 army bases 4 airforcebases and 2 naval bases in texas. i'm not sure how that would come into play but there it is.

- Now when aztlan decides to invade, you better belive that at least 90% of texans in the armed forces, no matter which side they're on are gonna find there way back to texas

- currently there are about 8 guns to every 1 person in texas

- historically tejanos (hispanic texans) played a large roll in texas independance i'm sure that wouldn't change in the future. and there's quite a few hispanics in texas, including myself Then there's all the illegals, they left for a reason, you could probably count at least 1/2 of them to resist.

- this might not play any significant role but, catholicism is outlawed in aztlan. there are quite a few catholics in texas. i'm sure some of them wouldn't want aztlan in texas as well.

-now this prolly won't matter, but, i'm from a border town and while ppl of border towns might get along with their nieghbors across the river they're attitude towards mexicans is prolly more harsh than most. take that how ever you'd like.
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JongWK
post Feb 2 2006, 02:17 AM
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"Welcome to the Aztlan-Texas shooting war. On the Aztlaner corner, a triple-A megacorp called Aztechnology. On Texas' corner... uh... well..."

Looks like a Don King fight, doesn't it? ;)
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hyzmarca
post Feb 2 2006, 02:24 AM
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Aztlan was part of the NAN because they classified Hispanics as Native Americans (which is technically accurate). If the USA decided to use the same standards it is possible that every tejano was rounded up and put into a death camp, greatly reducing any loyalty they they'd have toward Texas. Tenjanos fighting for Texas would be like Jews fighting for Nazi Germany.
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Ancient History
post Feb 2 2006, 02:33 AM
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Texas was in one of it's rather ill-considered independant phases at the moment, with apathetic (if not openly hostile) NAN neighbors, and Aztlaner forces were backed with magic. By the time the Lone Star did get help from the CAS, they'd already lost sizable chunks of territory, and the territory was probably ceded to Aztlan in ensuing peace talks.

It's not that Texans didn't fight - but they were facing a modern military force with the latest arms and magical support, and they didn't have the resources to regain the lost land.
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TheNarrator
post Feb 2 2006, 02:41 AM
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Hispanics are a major demographic in the U.S.... and growing fast. One in seven Americans is Hispanic. It's pretty much impossible that Hispanics could have been put in the camps... it would have increased the size of the job fifteen fold.

Native Americans? Not that numerous. 1% of the population, give or take.

Hispanics? 14.1% as of 2004.

Of course, the entire notion behind the US-NAN war is pretty preposterous. People would never have stood for a return to take-the-Indian's-land policies or large-scale internment camps. We're hardly a perfect people here in the United States, but we don't generally start reoppressing people we've ceased oppressing. The public outcry would make people's complaints over Guantanamo Bay seem like a quiet whisper. But the balkanization of all the major world powers is part of the Shadowrun flavor, so I whistle and look the other way as regards the metaplot. But increasing the size of the population being oppressed by a factor of 15 would just be too much to believe.
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ChuckRozool
post Feb 2 2006, 02:59 AM
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I understand that this is FASA/Wizkids/Fan Pros world and they can do what ever they wish... But would you agree that Mexico/Aztlan taking 1/2 of Texas is a pretty impossible feat. I think alot of Texans would die before they let their state be taken by any foreign goverment and the cost to take texas or most US states would be too costly to try.
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brennanhawkwood
post Feb 2 2006, 02:59 AM
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I do not remember if it is something we found in one of the Shadowrun game books/novels or something a GM made up, but I remember our gaming group getting a kick out of the tale of the Texan's fierce delaying campaign as they desperately held off the Aztlan forces headed for San Antonio...the purpose of course being to allow the Texans to cart off the Alamo (eventually reassembling it elsewhere) rather than allowing it to fall into Aztlan hands. A little silly an idea, but given a couple of Texans I've known I could see them trying it.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 2 2006, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (TheNarrator)
Of course, the entire notion behind the US-NAN war is pretty preposterous. People would never have stood for a return to take-the-Indian's-land policies or large-scale internment camps. We're hardly a perfect people here in the United States, but we don't generally start reoppressing people we've ceased oppressing.

History shows that that simply isn't true. The right propaganda can turn any majority gainst any minority and Lone Eagle was more than enough propaganda.

It is natural for one social group to oppress another. It may even be necessary. Having a 'them' to attack makes 'us' more cohesive.

QUOTE (ChuckRozool)
I understand that this is FASA/Wizkids/Fan Pros world and they can do what ever they wish... But would you agree that Mexico/Aztlan taking 1/2 of Texas is a pretty impossible feat. I think alot of Texans would die before they let their state be taken by any foreign goverment and the cost to take texas or most US states would be too costly to try.


Well, several US states had already been lost through surrender and the USA did not exist anymore. Texas was pretty much on its own so taking it would have been trivial. Keeping it is another matter. Offense is always easier than defense. Of course,
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Edward
post Feb 2 2006, 03:18 AM
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Given Aztechnologys public face after Mexico became Azatlan I expect Hispanics started to like it a hole lot more. Finest public relations department in history and all that.

Mf I understand the timing right they took this land just after the war that formed the CAS. The Texans are just coming out of a war they no longer have the military mite of a super power defending them and a major megacorp as an enemy, iff the megacorp really wanted the land it was going to win.

Edward
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SL James
post Feb 2 2006, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE (TheNarrator @ Feb 1 2006, 08:41 PM)
The public outcry would make people's complaints over Guantanamo Bay seem like a quiet whisper.

When did it cease being more than a whisper?

I also love you guys tossing around the word Hispanic with regards to Aztlan. That's fucking comedy gold. I'm sure the non-Mexicans really give a damn.
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John Campbell
post Feb 2 2006, 04:02 AM
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I think I may have to file Aztlan whuppin' Texas alongside CFS in "bits of SR history that might not be totally plausible but I approve of just because it's so funny watching partisans of the state in question get their panties in a wad about it".
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ChuckRozool
post Feb 2 2006, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Edward)
Given Aztechnologys public face after Mexico became Azatlan I expect Hispanics started to like it a hole lot more. Finest public relations department in history and all that.

Mf I understand the timing right they took this land just after the war that formed the CAS. The Texans are just coming out of a war they no longer have the military mite of a super power defending them and a major megacorp as an enemy, iff the megacorp really wanted the land it was going to win.

Edward

That is were you would be wrong, ppl know they are being oppressed no matter how nice a face you put on it. Also, considering that hispanics are in general Catholic, your PR dept would have to be some slick mother fuckers to make ppl like you after you outlaw their religion.

As far as the timing theory goes, that would certainly make more sense. Attack when they just got thru fighting a war.

Either way the whole Shadowrun world was created by a group of young geeks from Chicago who obviously didn't know very much about anything outside their small city ( :P ). Now they are much older and wealthier geeks who are more knowledgable about the world. :wobble:
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Deamon_Knight
post Feb 2 2006, 05:43 AM
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**sigh**

Didn't you guys Read Harlequinns back?

This is where it happened, chummers. This is where they broke the spirit, pardon the pun, of the good ol U.S of A. This is where they danced the Big One, the Great Ghost Dance.

The only explanation for beating the USA is gross, preposterous, atomic sized, supermagic. Magic powerful enough to beat the US armed forces and blunts Americas very will. Magic that is just shy of divine intervention,melts the brains of an untold number of dancers, and nearly ends the world.

And even after that, Texas still secedes and fights Aztlan to a stalemate by itself.

In a game, I can buy that.
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mfb
post Feb 2 2006, 06:06 AM
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i don't tend to think of it (when i think of it) as Texas losing half the state territory to Aztlan. i view it as Texas holding off a modern national army by itself. Texas had no support from the CAS military at all, and yet they kicked Aztlan in the teeth so hard, Aztlan ended up trying to call in the NAN for help. when the NAN refused, Aztlan's assault stalled.
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nick012000
post Feb 2 2006, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
i don't tend to think of it (when i think of it) as Texas losing half the state territory to Aztlan. i view it as Texas holding off a modern national army by itself. Texas had no support from the CAS military at all, and yet they kicked Aztlan in the teeth so hard, Aztlan ended up trying to call in the NAN for help. when the NAN refused, Aztlan's assault stalled.

Don't mess with Texas. ;)
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Critias
post Feb 2 2006, 06:22 AM
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The trick to accepting what happened with Texas is to take a "glass half full" view of what happened. It really is. Rather than losing half of Texas, Texans managed to keep half of it, fighting to a standstill a foreign national power, without backup.

I mean, it's like (purposefully, I'm sure) the Alamo, or maybe even Thermopylae. Do you remember it as "that place all those losers died," or "where a horribly outnumbered force held out for a good, long, time against an overwhelming foe."
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 2 2006, 06:32 AM
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good point. Texas did withdraw from the CAS for a time becuase the CAS wouldn't help them fight for their lost territory, then rejoined when they couldn't do it on their own. And they're still working at it. Azziewatch, Cavlier Arms, and the general attitude of most CAS-ers to Aztlan (check out YOTC) are good examples of the continuing effort against Aztlan.

And rememeber, Aztechnology does the 'finest public relations in history' Edward, at least, according to Corporate Download.
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Deamon_Knight
post Feb 2 2006, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
i don't tend to think of it (when i think of it) as Texas losing half the state territory to Aztlan. i view it as Texas holding off a modern national army With Magic by itself. Texas had no support from the CAS military at all, and yet they kicked Aztlan in the teeth so hard, Aztlan ended up trying to call in the NAN for help. when the NAN refused, Aztlan's assault stalled.

Corrected
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ChuckRozool
post Feb 2 2006, 07:32 AM
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All very good points. I suppose with all this added information it would be plausible.

I guess the thing that really miffed me was the thought of Aztlan holding half of my beloved town of Austin. She doesn't deserve a fate like that even if it's a alernate reality. BUT, i guess if you're gonna stop an invading force in texas the capitol (at the time) would be the place to do it.

I'm sure my home town of Laredo is just a bunch of burned out buildings. I would think the border towns would take the brunt of an assault, especially Laredo considering I-35 starts/ends there. Straight, more or less, line to San Antonio and Austin.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 2 2006, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE (ChuckRozool)
That is were you would be wrong, ppl know they are being oppressed no matter how nice a face you put on it. Also, considering that hispanics are in general Catholic, your PR dept would have to be some slick mother fuckers to make ppl like you after you outlaw their religion.

The great thing about the Awakening is the ability to prove or disprove the validity of certain religious claims. The Aztechnology PR department is slick enough to convince people that Christianity is simply not the correct cosmological view.

Huitzilopochtli answers prayers far more often Jesus and Jehova ever did and you can talk to a Feathered Serpent in person. If Constantine could make Catholicism the official religion while outlawing the worship of the real gods without being overthrown then Azlan certainly can rectify that mistake.

The secularization of the world in the past few decades hit a hard blow against Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church in particular. The Awakening made things even worse. Christianity is really little more than a fringe cult again. Those that have any religious inclination at all find themselves drawn to the old ways which seem to actually work now.

There are Catholic 'terrorists' in Aztlan but far too few to actually cause any trouble.
Who would want to worship a 2000 year-old shedim-possessed corpse anyway?
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Grinder
post Feb 2 2006, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (ChuckRozool)
- currently there are about 8 guns to every 1 person in texas

:eek:

Who needs 8 guns? Serioulsy.
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