[X] My Assistant

[BitBasher]

I think he rolled his eyes because you broke it down only to numbers while it is more complex than that. There are advantages/disadvantages to both the magic and the ware that cannot be quantified down into a cash value.

THat post is entirely correct if cash is all you consider, but the vast majority of the time that is only a fraction of what "balance" is in SR.

[Sphynx]

Not to mention that you also state the need for the +6 WP, using 13 of your 12 Force before Foci Addiction. :P Not to mention that since the Reflex Spell is the one you're always 'recasting' to walk through wards and such the +6 TN for that Improved Reaction makes the spell a near impossibility to recast.

Regardless, start a thread on the wonderful imbalances of Reflexes so we can, for once, stay on-track with the thread about how best to House Rule the 3 spells into a single spell. :P

White Dwarf,

Yeah, I personally agree with Force 3 for +3 cap, but you have to be careful then about people exceeding 3 dice. If you cap it at 3 dice (sensible) then have a good explanation as to why Reflexes work that way and not attributes (the arguement that I believe caused this to be the last, if ever, spell converted to a single spell), and realize this spell will suddenly always be learned at Force 3. At least with a Force/2 cap people will still learn the spell at Force 4, if for no reason other than 3S drain and never expecting more than 4 successes. ;)

Sphynx

[John Campbell]

[Sphynx]

My PC has a Reaction of 5 and 16 successes on his Increased Reflexes. So, having a cap (equal to half the Force of the Spell) is a VERY good idea as it's quite easy to get the number of successes needed to outdo a Sammie otherwise. With it being equal to the Force, I'd be a +6D6 right now. (Hell, with a Reaction of 2 I'd have 24 successes). :P

Sphynx

[BitBasher]

How in gods name are you throwing that many dice? To get 16 sucesses at TN5 you need on average to toss 48 dice!

[TinkerGnome]

Joe average combat mage has 7 sorcery dice for spellcasting, a spellpool of 6, a reaction of 4, and a willpower of 6 (aka, the troll combate mage archtype). Statistically, he could have 6 successes on his casting (5 spell pool) and take no drain (1 spell pool) with the modified spell (drain +1S).

Bob the Destroyer has 7 sorcery dice for spellcasting, a spellpool of 7, a reaction of 4, and a willpower of 10 (aka, albino gnome shaman). Since he's also following the Bear totem (or pick any other with the bonus), he has +2 dice for health spells. So the best he could do (statisticly) would be eight successes (7 spell pool), and no drain.

Actually, that comparison isn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it would be ;) At reaction 5, these numbers get a little smoother.

[Sphynx]

2, Force 6 Expendable Spell Foci and 3 Karma Pool for re-rolls. I always throw at least 24 dice for any spell I intend to have with me for a long-ass time.

Sphynx

[The White Dwarf]

Sphynx good call with the hardcoded limit. It might cause the spell to be learned at a "static" force level, but if swapped to a scaling, no cap version a la the attribute spells you obviously will get imbalance. The more its examined the more this is just an anomoly you cant really get around in a way that solves all the issues, but the current version works fine anyhow, so nbd.

Polaris you cannot make the comparison from cyber to magic without comparing the other factors like cyber cannot be dispelled or lost to an astral attack or the fact that magic costs 30 bp extra which inflates the magic cost. The game does not boil down to some "effect for nuyen" bottom line which you keep trying to get to; there are other considerations. Im tired if repeating the instances where the stat for nuyen comparison breaks down, so Im no longer going to respond to anything posted on the subject. One can ignore these factors should you choose to come up with some "pure, valid" example, but much like a guy in an R&D lab the theoretical comparison wont hold up in play without due attention to gameplay variables.

[Polaris]

The White Dwarf,

I am sorry to hear that because I noticed the imbalance in actual play and then I crunched the numbers to figure out why. In short the imbalance is quite real and badly needs a houserule....both the experimental (play testing) and numeric analysis show this. BTW, 'research scientists' care very much about experimental data in IRL so the comparison is unfair.

-Polaris

[TinkerGnome]

Sphynx, you can't always count on being able to have the spell on you for a long time. I'd wager to say that in most games, mages have to recast their increased reflexes spell after every other run or so, if not more often than that.

[Sphynx]

Agreed TG, but you have to be prepared for it as a GM. Look at my PC with his 12 Karma Quickened spell and 16 successes. I prove right there that a 'permanent' spell is possible with up to +6 (since it's a Force 6 spell) dice for initiative if you don't cap it at Force/2. Or, you could just hard-cap it at 3 dice, ever, but that's also non-standardized and defeats the purpose of trying to standardize it.

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

How do you handle runs where there is a lot of astral security? If you're not at least grade 3 with masking, (the level at which you can start holding your own against standard astral barriers when synchronizing... you'll probably never get past a force 5 ward at grade 2) I'd be interested in knowing your methods.

[Sphynx]

Well, as I've stated before, I either keep it legal, or take care of the Astral Security long before we arrive at the site. You can click on the background of my character (in my signature) for how our games go. We don't "shadowrun" perse, or when we do actually hit a place, we remove all threats long before we enter the grounds.

Also, check out our Astral Guardian by looking on my page for the character called 'Spirit'. He insures that anyone who shows up to investigate in the Astral doesn't get far. Then you have the whole 'planning' stage where you make sure that the patrols are busy somewhere else, that the response time is timed, and that all your fields are covered. I don't need to stealth if there's nobody to notice I broke through the barrier, or if there's no response (or a greatly delayed response) to my intrusion. It's how you play/plan that makes stealth, not just being stealthy. ;)

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

Hmm... I don't know if that strategy would work very often in one of my games... Security mages tend to show up with elementals and a "if something happens to me" watcher close behind. If someone's breaking the wards on a building, it also tends to put everyone on alert, and elemental and watcher patrols get tighter. As a carefully timed and orchestrated plan, though, I could see it being very effective (you'd have to do the astral assault within minutes of the physical assault).

Though I can see horror stories floating around about mages who are breaking wards and laying in wait for the astral response to waylay them. It'd make any mage think about a career change.

[Sphynx]

Yeah, it's not something you do every game, but I got bored of planning building hits some 10 years ago in this game. I like the non-shadowrun, shadowrun games. Police/LoneStar jobs, Merc work, post-apocalyptic (bug city), etc are more our style. You can only 'shadowrun' so many times before it gets a bit.... boring. :P

The few times we hit a building, we have plenty of time to do the Italian Job on it. Anything less is just flavorless. I find it difficult to believe that people who understand the min-max potential of the metatechniques are still hitting buildings game in and game out.

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

Well, I've never been much for traditional shadowruns, either (our team once got hired to take a Johnson big game hunting... awakened big game). However, I'd still (as a GM) throw in situations where it gets difficult to walk around shattering astral barriers and the like. At the very least, the spell had better be properly licensed on a real SIN. Eventually fake SINs get caught.

[John Campbell]

[Sphynx]

Not true. First off, to make the spell castable at Force 1, you'd obviously round-down meaning a Force 5 could get +3D6. Secondly, you have to ignore the 'cumulative increase' of the MitS and give it a 1 time drain increase meaning you end up with a +1S spell. At +1S, you can afford alot more dice to casting instead of drain. Average spell caster rolls 6+dice to cast and 6+ dice to drain with a Spell Pool of 5+. If you take this at Force 3 (which I imagine will be the most common) you end up with a 2S drain which is easily taken cared of with 8 dice (or 6 with a trauma dampener) and allows you to roll at least 8 dice, TN Reaction(most commonly not higher than 5). With a Reaction of 4, you can pretty much guarantee that your 8 dice can get you your 4 successes needed for a +2D6. If you a bit better min-maxxer, you're guaranteed to not take drain nor ever get +1D6.

That doesn't make the spell useless, it only makes the spell not auto-default to +3D6 with +2D6 being an almost guarantee.

Now to compare it to Cyberware is the mistake I think. That's like complaining that Enhance Aim isn't as effective as a Smartlink. Good. :P A mage character has so many more options than a Sammie will ever have that it's ok if you're a bit slower. If you want the Geasa and Cyber, get that. :P

There's no way to convince me a +2D6 at +1S is 'useless' to take as a Mage. Hell, learn it at Force 6, cast it at Force 3 until you Quicken it and you have a pretty nice setup.

Sphynx

[Adarael]

Sphynx sez:

[Sphynx]

Errr.... John Campbell sez that, not me. :P

Sphynx

[Adarael]

Oops. Quite right.

Sorry, I have a 'default' setting for posters that my mind goes back to when it gets confused. In gun discussions, it's Raygun, in magic, it's you. <G>

[Lilt]

Well Polaris: You should probably include all of the factors in your equation:
People with spells sustained on them are about as astrally stealthy as a one-man trollish thrash metal band. In many buildings that have any form of security the building will have at least a few wards around the most valuable (read shadowrun-critical) areas. Also: Isn't it impossible to attack a ward without the owner knowing? Against any form of roving paranormal security (watchers, elementals, paranimals, ETC) you'd have to mask the foci near-constantly meaning that you either need to be an uber grade (>6th) or so initiate or you have just set-off an alarm and have an anti-mage strike team on its way to meet you.

Also: it is hard to cast the spell on anyone who already has a good reaction, and mages will probably have a poorer quickness than your average sammie type (fewer attribute points to spend). Isn't that a bit of a balancing factor? remember: he who moves first tends to win.

Lastly: The designers of shadowrun obviously followed a different technique making the increase reflexes spell than with any other spell. The current sustem may well have been put there on purpose. You'd be as well arguing that wired reflexes should be cheaper.

[Sphynx]

[Polaris]

Lilt,

Several things:

1. In of itself, the force 1 focus with Increased Reflexes +3 can be very stealthy. It can also be turned off when you encounter wards and turned on again with very little difficulty.

2. While it is true that you can not breach a ward without the owner knowing, that owner may not be (and if you did your legwork will not be) the mage on duty. That means that the owner-mage has to react and notify security that there is a problem.....or go there himself.

The problem with that of course is that the only way to notify security in *time* is to go astral yourself.....and when I run a team, there is a mage with about 2-4 force 8 elementals sitting on his ass waiting for him to do just that.

3. As for paranormal animals, they are a joke. Anything that is dual natured is helpless against an astral mage or shaman. Anyone that puts out paranormal animals as security may as well just shoot the dumb beasts themselves. The same applies to elementals without immediate magical support.

4. To mask the focus in question, you only have to be a grade one initiate. That's not hard.

5. Any focus that is force 6 or more will blow through almost any ward with impunity. Double-Strength quickened spells virtually ignore wards.

In short, I have covered all these points and many others at great length elsewhere. The designers have simply underestimated the power of foci-sustained spells and overestimated the drawbacks....as do many dumpshockers. I guess that is because too many people still believe in the back of their minds that spells can still be grounded through spell-anchors. That is no longer true, but a lot of posters here (and SR players in general) still *act* as though it were still true.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

4. To mask the focus in question, you only have to be a grade one initiate. That's not hard.


Actually.... that's not quite true. :P To Mask a foci in a manner that synchronizes it with the ward, you get to roll your Gradex2 against a TN of the Barrier, and that's opposed by the barrier using it's Force against the Grade. So, a Grade 1 is going to roll 2 dice, tn 5 and the barrier gets 5 dice, TN 2 (assuming we have a common Force 5 Ward here, and minimum TN is 2).

Your chances if the 5 dice coming up all 1's is pretty damn slim.

Sphynx