 What to do about that accountant player, I can't mug him EVERY week! |
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 Feb 16 2006, 08:59 PM
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#151
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 8-February 06 Member No.: 8,244  |
Hey, that was a very well reasoned treatise on street-level supply and demand in a black market economy! |
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Feb 16 2006, 09:06 PM
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#152
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 8-February 06 Member No.: 8,244 |
Except by the local syndicate - because you're stealing and selling on one low-level guy's turf, and he's responsible for it. City-wide, not much of a bump, but you're making Nuyen in somebody else's sandbox. It's not a question of whether you're hurting business, or providing competition. It's a question of: *BASH* "Pay me." *SMASH* "Frag you. Pay me." *CRUNCH* "Frag you. PAY ME."
Remember, though - Every transaction, you're losing a little bit of not a lot of profit in the first place, as one more middle-man takes his cut. And not every fixer knows EVERY other fixer, so you're looking at goods passing through six, seven pairs of hands if you're moving a lot of stuff. Diminishing returns, don'cha know? |
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Feb 16 2006, 09:16 PM
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#153
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Crime syndicates don't steal cars. Punks steal cars. Crime syndicates buy stolen cars from punks. The local crime syndicate is making money off the runners, they're not hurting business. They might be making slightly less per unit because of the glut, but they are getting more units so that's still more money. edit: The only person who's business is going to be hurt here is the punk car-thief. And sure, there are diminishing returns if the gear has to be sold in Winnipeg because there are too many Ares Predators in Seattle right now. So fine, drop the availability on that one item by a point. Drop the street price on that one item by 15%. Because, of course, flooding the market with Ares Predators doesn't have anything to do with the people looking to buy cars, or comlinks, or anything else, so you have to track every item that they're flooding the market with. Congratulations, you have just tripled the GMs bookkeeping workload. Great fix. Yay, realism. I don't think the problem with this situation is how SR4's rules don't model real-world economics well enough. There have been a lot of better suggestions already made. |
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Feb 16 2006, 09:21 PM
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#154
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
It seems to me that if you're 'flooding the market' the smart fixer will just lower his prices - which means lowering what he pays you. 15% retail value? Just dropped to 5%. After all, he's effectively buying them in bulk now, isn't he? A viable solution to all parties.
And I still think the core problem has been solved. Enforce weights and maximum amount of volume you can carry, plus times to pick stuff up. You're not going to be able to carry six AKs and a kilo of trout out of the facility because you don't have eight arms or a rucksack big enough, nor are you strong enough to haul all that and your own stuff too. And, all told, that's for what, $1,000? Not worth it. |
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Feb 16 2006, 09:22 PM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
RE: nezumi
Yes, because that is exactly what I suggested, tracking the price of every black market item like a commodities broker. No, what I suggested were possible reasons for IC consequences, plot hooks, or warnings. |
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Feb 16 2006, 09:50 PM
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#156
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 8-February 06 Member No.: 8,244 |
They don't even do that. They just take a cut off the thieves and the fences. That's the beauty, that's the whole point. Organized crime pretty much just sells you a license to operate and not get messed with by other operators. They also provide you with a license to not get your legs broken. Everybody wins. They don't have to do anything, they just don't kill you and you work for them, and pay them for the privilege. |
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Feb 16 2006, 10:03 PM
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#157
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Um... Alright. Because every post is in response to you. I wasn't responding directly to you. I was simply responding to a problem that is oftentimes brought up, flooding the market will somehow make the stuff worthless. It won't. At worst, it'll drop prices. Your other complaints have been addressed by other posters several times over. Fixers earn their keep by making sure what they sell doesn't track back to you. If they can't do that, they shouldn't be fixers. |
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Feb 16 2006, 10:24 PM
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#158
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
"Several times over"
Kage said he doesn't think you can flood a street market with just one team. While this is true if you are working with every fence in the region, it is entirely untrue if you are working with one, two, or even a half dozen. Kage also was confused as to the difference between a fence and a fixer (they can often be the same person, it's true) and maintained that they can make sure goods are untracable. While again true if you have access to the entire region and sell in reasonable quantities, it is entirely untrue if you are working with limited members of the black market community. Moon-hawk repeated the concerns about fixers not being able to move in bulk. I know it's tempting to treat fences and fixers like video game merchants, always willing to buy whatever you drag into them an unlimited number of times, and you are welcome to do this in most circumstances. If it is affecting the game in a negative way, however, you might consider bringing reason to bear. A little bit of economics and underworld knowledge is far more reasonable to a player than being mugged every week. The OP wanted ideas on handling this problem without doing that very thing. Your local fence can move a crate of rifles, or a dozen pistols, or six whole decks. They can not maintain this kind of volume over an extended period of time without causing problems. They will stop buying, maybe they'll tell you where you might be able to sell it, but you don't have any idea if this new contact is going to deal straight with you or not. If this new contact runs into problems (say someone is already looking into a case that something in your latest batch links to) they are far more likely to sell you out than a fixer you have a solid working relationship with. The more stuff that links to you on the market, the greater chance that something is going to get back to you. A fixer could be 90% sure no info on you will get back to interested parties, but this margin quickly becomes worrisome if you're putting tens of thousands in gear on the market every month or two. If you don't encounter game problems with selling gear, then you don't need to worry about this kind of thing. But reality can be a nice break to game-detrimental behavior. |
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Feb 16 2006, 10:57 PM
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#159
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In the same day? Wow then, that's a lot. Oh wait, you mean over a period of weeks to months? That is nothing. An active fence probably moves that much before breakfast minus the vehicles, and probably takes care of that many of those in a matter of days.
No, I'm not. That's one often-confused aspect of Fixers: Fixers don't buy stuff. Fixers sell access to people who buy stuff. They sell this to people who sell stuff. They also sell the other way around. The only commodity a Fixer (in the pure sense of the term) sells directly is information, because it's difficult to have access but not possess it oneself (not impossible). Many Fixers sideline as Fences, but there's a difference.
You missed my point. My point is that these are people who do this for a living. Not only are they going to be able to make sure a whole shitload of stuff, far more than we're talking about here, will be able to sink quietly, they will also have a pretty good idea of when to stop buying. Sure, people screw up, but to expect that a Fence will get too much of something and then not either sit on it or sell it on to another Fence somewhere else is ridiculous.
Yeah, or twenty times that much on everything but the decks—they vary too much in price to make a meaningful statement about. We can't discuss this rationally because your idea of a "large quantity" is batshit insane. ~J |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 17 2006, 12:41 AM
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#160
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Guests |
While I tend to agree, that the quantities discussed here are not big enough to flood the market (in a sprawl like seattle, at least) or surpass the capacity of a decent fence, one should allso keep in mind, that "Mr. Accountants" M.O. would hardly be rare among runners, if it was decently effective. 1 out of 3 Runnerteams probably has a Mr. Accountant, if not more. If You want to take shadow-economics into consideration, You should reckon in the loot of the whole community (or of the sellers, the particular fence is involved with).
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Feb 17 2006, 02:09 AM
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#161
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then we get to the question of how many runnerteams there are. Your mileage may vary, but I don't see even a city the size of Seattle being able to support that many full-fledged Shadowrunners at any given time.
~J |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 17 2006, 02:30 AM
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#162
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Guests |
True, but fences do not only work with/for runners, actually most of the looting will come from gangers and petty thiefs. People for which the low rates do compensate for the work, because thay have no accsess to higher grade shadowwork.
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Feb 17 2006, 02:57 AM
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#163
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Which is why some RP groups are forced to join said behavior, even though they are doing risky work, just miserly GMs. |
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Feb 17 2006, 03:29 AM
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#164
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I would handle it in a simple manner. If I had an NPC along, which I think I would conveniently, and they observe this, their professional rating drops. This type of behaviour is something a newbie ganger would do, not a professional shadowrunner.
Have their fixer drop a strong hint. "Yeah, come for a meet at walleys at 10 pm. Oh and tell the graverobber to stay home, Mr Johnson wants serious professionals" |
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Feb 17 2006, 04:08 AM
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#165
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Serious professionals are out for one thing and one thing only: :nuyen: .
If 'graverobbing' is an effective way to boost the :nuyen: , especially in the face of miserly GMs and Mr. Johnsons with waaaay too many social skills and a group with no face, then that is how it must be. |
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Feb 17 2006, 04:30 AM
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#166
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Lol thats great Platinum! The question really becomes how big the shadow economy is. I can't imagine that there are more than 100 active runners in Seattle at any one time. I try to imagine a situation where there would be so many powers vying for an edge against each other, and willing to do anything to get it. Maybe, Berlin during the Cold War, or Zurich during WWII? I can't imagine there were dozens upon dozens of agents and counteragents running undercover ops against each other. I'm not sure how big the market for black market weapons is. Maybe internationally, but is your fixer going to have those kind of connections? The Barrens distort this somewhat, but are the gangs in the barrens really going to be able to buy that case of Ares Alphas?Or even Ares Predators? |
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Feb 17 2006, 04:55 AM
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#167
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Alphas? Give them time.
Predators are the best and cheapest weapon, if you ask me. Yes, they'll be able to buy that case of Preds. With which they use to get the money for the case of Alphas. :) |
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Feb 17 2006, 04:57 AM
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#168
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
What is irrational is your idea on what a large quantity is. I speak not from fiction books and video games here, but from two groups of people I've know; addicts and law enforcement. I haven't known any really big movers of drugs. I was acquainted friend of a friend with a guy who moved about a kilo of blow plus some weed every year or so and that's about it (SWAT kicked in his door). I also knew some people who moved a few kilos of weed every year as well as plenty of users of various things who'd look to be making back by selling to less-connected users. Additionally, I have known a fair number of people in law enforcement, primarily local interdiction officers and criminal lawyers but also people in federal law (lawyers and one agent). What you don't realize is that moving a little of something is a lot easier than moving a lot of something. Unless you want to wait to move over five years (on an aggressive scale with risk) those 100 assault rifles you're going to have to be dealing internationally, not on the street market. Before you say SR is going to be a lot different than today, I'm way ahead of you. I'm already figuring automatic weapons would be on the same scale drugs are today. Today you'd find it a lot harder to move fully automatic weapons than you would sizable amounts of narcotics. Let's stay with the guns instead of talking drugs. In SR, the man on the street with exposure to the criminal side of things can move a pistol easily enough. He can probably even find a quick buyer for a civilian long arm. If he has something automatic, it's quite possible he can move it, but he should be careful of getting burned. The average buyer he'd be able to find may not be convinced he needs to deal fair at that price. This is not what we're talking about though, we're talking about the people who actually do this for a living. One of these fellows will have a couple channels to distribute what they have. They can send it to different neighborhoods, sell it to local small-time fences who'll put it on the street, they can sell it to be sent out towards areas where it might be harder to get such things, or they can shuffle it between large markets if the supply is already swamped where they are. It is not cost effective to send one or two rifles at a time off to lesser markets. You'd be selling at a cheaper price because these things are essentially the overflow markets (small town scene). You can, however, dump a few down this way if other routes fail to get the money or lack of risk you want. The local dealers can only take so many guns at a time. Same is true of other areas' local dealers. If you already maxed out Tacoma's comfort level last month, you probably can't do it again. The reason for this is that law enforcement (despite what you see on TV) knows more about the local scene than you'd think. They'll put the resources into breaking up a big deal not because they need to "get those off the street" but because a big bust brings big promotions to the officers involved. Small fish who have been around long enough, know not to try to be big fish unless the deal is really sweet and really safe (relatively). If you send them to another market, you lose money because there''s another middleman. You can also only throw so many into the market at once for the reasons listed above. If you need to move them fast, a well-connected dealer will know an international channel, but they'd buy cheap and sell cheap in south-east Asia or to the Chinese warlords. Moving them to another center of shadow-activity or sending them abroad doesn't just attract LS if the deal is 100 assault rifles though, that attracts federals who are just as hungry for career-making busts as the locals. So best case, you get 50% retail of 5 of them or so. You manage to shovel some of them out to the fringes for 30% retail. Maybe you can move some down to Cali or something for 15%-20%. And the rest you're exporting at 5%-10%. This is the most aggressive sale of the weapons possible, represents a lot of risk for the dealer involved and will still take months to complete. I know TV and the movies make it seem like bulk dealing is easy, but it's not. The small players risk a lot if they try to step up and be big. If you're dealing with a big player, he's buying your stuff really cheap, assuming he's willing to deal with you (unconnected random thug...) at all. If you're dealing with someone in the middle, they can get you moderate 20-40% prices on lots of 10 at a time, but only one every few months. |
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Feb 17 2006, 06:00 AM
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#169
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Wow! A nice long post, backed up by more assumptions than I care to count.
Keep It Simple Stupid, look at availability and street index. Those numbers are rules for market conditions in the game. |
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Feb 17 2006, 07:25 AM
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#170
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
How about you do count for those of us who are apparently too stupid to not just talk shit out of our asses?
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Feb 17 2006, 08:46 AM
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#171
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Me? Well his whole spiel was based on anecdotal information. Then it gets coupled with supposed corallaries between marijuana and guns, and blow (I'm assuming cocaine) and guns and the factual past and the fictional future. That is his foundation to extrapolate other assumptions. One of them that seemed really asinine was that guns would not bring a premium in an area basically at war - California. He even makes the assumption there would not be a market for them. Or maybe he was talking about the recent factual past? Just watch the news. Every time a guy gets arrestedand a gun gets taken off the street, it needs replaced, either by the next scumbag to take his place or by the same guy when he makes bail or gets out of prison. He may actually want more than one gun, because he wants one nearby and he is a little smarter so he is going to ditch his current one if it looks like he is getting pinched. Guns are a very liquid commodity. Think of the thousands that turn up at gunshows, and the ones that people might think are hot so only sell outside the show. Police auctions sell every piece of crap gun that goes to auction. I can't recall the price of guns ever taking a nosedive. If it costs $500 for a gun bought legally down at the FLGunS, and the price for the same thing from a guy out of his trunk is half, I'd buy 2 ( a friend would probably want one, heck I can think of 20 people I could sell a nice half price Colt 1911 or a Beretta 9mm to), because you never know when you might need an unregistered gun, or when you might have used a gun that you now wish was not registered to you. Would the fence trust me? I don't know, but he'd probably trust 10 of those 20 people I mentioned. So there is a bunch more anecdotal information and a few more assumptions. I think his numbers are way the fuck off, too. They seem more in line with what I would expect from a city of 100,000 not one of 6 million, and those 100k are in todays world, not the more dangerous fictitious future of SR. Look at how many events have occurred that it would have been prudent to have a gun. Little things like go gangs controlling interstate highways, little border wars, hostile annexations, race riots, bug city... Yeah, the demand for guns in the volatile fictional future is going to taper off from the recent factual past. I do not see the market getting sturated by looting shadowrunners. KISS, use the rules that are in place, adjust them a little if you feel you must, and look for other consequences resulting from looting. |
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Feb 17 2006, 08:56 AM
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#172
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Just to let you know, this is when I determined that you have no clue what you're talking about. |
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Feb 17 2006, 09:06 AM
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#173
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Anything offered below market price can be sold if a volatile market does exist.
There is a gun market, therefore guns can be sold. Larger quantities fetch a lower price because your fence will have to store those and actually search for a buyer rather than simply wait for one. Black Ops teams will buy cold iron on the black market. The secret service will. Corporate armies might if the quality is good and the price too. Lack of a volatile market leads to low prices. How many people are going to buy a high-force focus? The original owner will want it back. The customer might consider sidestepping on payment very profitable. And in most campaigns we don´t have to talk small-time movers. SR tends to focus on the professional criminals. |
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Feb 17 2006, 09:11 AM
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#174
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Maybe I should have said funtioning. I have seen broken guns sell at police auctions. Every time I have ever went to a public auction, the firearms brought top dollar. Everything else could be selling for 1-10% of its actual value, but those guns brought top dollar. Tell me what guns you can get and the low low price, and I'll call your ass on it by coming over this weekend to buy them. :P |
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Feb 17 2006, 02:38 PM
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#175
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 8-February 06 Member No.: 8,244 |
This is me, laughing at a bunch of guys who play role-playing games (myself included) sitting around talking like we're international arms dealers: :rotfl: That's right, I ROFLed. So sue me. |
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