 What to do about that accountant player, I can't mug him EVERY week! |
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 Feb 9 2006, 06:43 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706  |
In SR4, low lifestyle got more expensive. 2000 :nuyen: So it'd better be a cheap girlfriend ;)
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Feb 9 2006, 06:45 PM
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#52
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
It all depends on the PC I suppose, but talk to your player about WHY his PC is doing it. A little looting is acceptable, wholesale theft isnt looked on as a positive thing usually.
While I have yet to have a PC above stopping to snag a cyberdeck, I havent had one stoop low enough to harvest cyberware. But as someone pointed out stocking stuffers are usually a good bet. Good handguns, small electronics, nice looking jewlrey, drugs, are within reason if there is time. |
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Feb 9 2006, 06:45 PM
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#53
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Oh. Sorry, I still make a lot of SR3 mistakes. I'm bad. :(
So jacking a Ford Americar every week just about supports a low lifestyle for a team of 5. Interesting. If they're roommates, they do even better! :) |
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Feb 9 2006, 06:58 PM
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#54
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Some asides...
1) The transponder isn't an issue if you have a reasonable amount of time (around half an hour to an hour), the electronics skill and the apropriate tools. If your team is without the latter two, they aren't going to get through a lot of runs in the first place. 2) Keep in mind, beyond the price reduction for damaged and used, the vehicle is also hot. That will also greatly reduce the price. |
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Feb 9 2006, 07:08 PM
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#55
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Actually my calculation only took in to account Used and Stolen, Damaged would be a further reduction.
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Feb 9 2006, 07:11 PM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
1. Agreed - I really don't see how stealing a car can possibly be a problem for a competent team of runners. If you can't handle a parking garage, what are you going to do about the security at a corporate research facility? Carjacking is always an option as well - just stash the driver somewhere he won't be able to make phone calls for a few hours while you trash the car's security from the inside, and sell it off. 2. True, but if you're blessed with - for example - a rigger with a Connected relating to vehicles, or a couple of level 2 contacts who run a "garage", or both, your margin of profit can increase very nicely. Of course, the solution here is not to make car theft absurdly difficult or unprofitable, but run the game in such a way thay your players will have better things to do than steal cars. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 9 2006, 07:25 PM
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#57
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Guests |
Thats right. But that is allready some effort. Most SR gamers dont want to play only GTA.
Allso, if you are doing anything regularly, you are again going to hurt the big boys market share and thay would like to have a cut (of your profit or at your throat). So in the end youīd probably only make low, middle if youīr good. where runners usually make liw to middle if thay are regulars and high if they are good. In the end, being a good gang of carjackers, that can affort middle lifestyle and than some, would need high technical, stealth and driving skills, good tools, own garage, specialized contacts (car fences, mobsters and snitches). So in the end you will have a low end runner team at best. |
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Feb 9 2006, 07:39 PM
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#58
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Depending, of course, on what it would cost to secure that cut. It all goes back to how competent the runner team is. I would estimate that most competent runner teams would have to be turning into "the big boys" themselves before it would be worth it to spend the resources needed to off themthey don't usually go down easily. ~J |
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Feb 9 2006, 07:57 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Sorry, you lost me there. Are you saying it's harder to make a living as a car thief than as a shadowrunner? If not, what precisely do you mean? Most shadowrunners don't do car theft full time because they're absurdly overqualified for it - and can get better money elsewhere. They're also unlikely to have any trouble with the "big boys"... Or at least, any more trouble than you get for being a runner in the first place. A runner's existence basically amounts to making various powerful people unhappy - if you can shield yourself from corporate wrath, you damn well ought to be able to take whatever the mob might dish out. |
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Feb 9 2006, 07:58 PM
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#60
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
It probably depends on who it is you piss off. The Mob might just let you in on the racket for a reasonable cut, or ignore you if you stay reasonably small. The Yaks on the other hand may come down on you hard for even daring to challenge them, or for failing to ask the Oyabun's blessing before you start. The Vory, the Triads, and the Rings will all react a bit differently. Remember that in sthese sorts of cases that the culture of the dominant syndicate will dictate response almost as much as the raw economics do. Then there will be the local car theft ring to compete with. Finally a lot of syndicates run protection rackets, how is this related? If you steal a car from someone paying for protection the syndicate may just uphold their end of the deal, especially if you aren't in their network. |
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Feb 9 2006, 08:30 PM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,056 |
If the other players feel the time he is spending doing the looting is interfering with the mission then they need to speak up. The problem you face is the loot is often worth way more than the run payment. At least it was in SR3. My SR3 mage went so far as to develop a spell than turned dead flesh to water so we could recover cyberware. Of course that only worked when we killed the opposition and ended up with the bodies and lots of time. |
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Feb 9 2006, 09:12 PM
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#62
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Soloution: Jack up the payment they're getting from runs. If they feel so desperate that anything not in catagory 1 (IE: Easy-Swipe) is temping them to take major risks for it, you're obviously failing to provide them with enough :nuyen: .
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Feb 9 2006, 09:19 PM
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#63
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Be careful not to give them so much that they are always flush with cash either as that creates other problems. I had a group once where the expectation was that they would get 10K per runner per run for a fairly routine run (largely because of what a previous GM had done). This can be really annoying to deal with because the characters basically want for nothing so they have very little motivation to take jobs. |
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Feb 9 2006, 09:34 PM
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#64
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
10k/runner/run leaves them "wanting for nothing"?
Let me guess, all PhysAds with Enchanting? ~J |
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Feb 9 2006, 09:43 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
If it were SR3, that's not unreasonable. If the PCs are averaging one run a month and have a rigger in the group, he was probably hurting for any cash after he got done with his upkeep and lifestyle. One thing I've always liked is the allowance of cash <=> karma rules. Some characters are cash hogs, others are karma hogs. Heck, I've run games where I didn't give out any karma but used fairly large amounts of cash and let them split that between cash and karma as they wished. SR4 has leveled it out a fair bit with the drastic price reductions and the (at least temporary) removal of vehicle/drone upkeep costs. |
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Feb 9 2006, 09:46 PM
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#66
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
By routine run I mean 3-5 days of work (or a one night session for completion), for a month they would have expected closer to 50k each.
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Feb 9 2006, 09:55 PM
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#67
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I believe the SR3 Ford Americar listed at 25000 new. So to redo the math deducting 40% for being Stolen and Used leaves a list price of 15000, then 30% of that gets you to 4500, 900 per runner in a 5 man team. Assuming you still get a 20% increase over base through your Troll Face you are at (4500*1.2 = 5400) for a whopping 1080 per runner in a 5 man team. If they can do one per week you're at 4320 per man per month. |
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Feb 9 2006, 11:04 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I think we're sort of getting stuck on minutiae, here. The whole "Runners are not going to..." thing was something I said in a thread in which we were talking about the reccommended (and rather pathetic) pay for the whole crew as per SR3 (or was that the SR Companion?) and someone talking about basically paying runners 500 :nuyen: or so each for a "simple" run. It was meant to illustrate a general point - that runners should never get paid less than they would get for easier, less risky jobs, and that even stealing a shitbox like an Americar can yield more money than what the books suggest you ought to get for a run. 10,000 :nuyen: each is certainly not unreasonable - for starting runners - but hardly enough to free them from all wants... Of course, I base this on games I've played in - and in one of them, I have a character just sitting on 150,000 :nuyen: he's made in about a month and a half game-time (about a year and a half real-time, online game), because in order to significantly improve on cyberware he got at character creation he'd need roughly ten times as much. (the joys of trying to upgrade Wired Reflexes...) |
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Feb 9 2006, 11:04 PM
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#69
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ok, then I change my question: are your characters all PhysAds with Enchanting and Digestive Expansion? ~J |
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Feb 9 2006, 11:15 PM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I think part of the issue might be your timeframe. If you're giving runners 5 jobs a month, that's a bit excessive. The standard in most groups I've played in has generally been 1 run a month with the rare second run directly related to the first. One job a month at 10k pays the bills and leaves over a little bit.
In general, no run should pay less than the average PC's upkeep and expenditures (vehicle upkeep, ammo, etc.) plus 10%. |
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Feb 9 2006, 11:28 PM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
The game style we have typically played tends to be much lower powered than it sounds like a lot of you are playing. 5-10K per man per run is pretty typical, with extra given for certain complications (a particularly difficult target, requiring travel outside Seattle). Our group does encourage the runners to do things to supplement their base pay, though not the wholesale looting that started this thread. I'll frequently have a "bonus item" (like a box of BTLs, or some APDS ammo, or some other useful or high street value item frequently testing their moral convictions) that alert or lucky characters can find during the course of their job to boost either the Cash or Karma reward at the end. I do also allow a variation on the cash for karma or karma for cash rules to be used. My rule is that you can trade up to 1/3 of an end of run award so 3k and 3 Karma can become 4k and 2 karma or 2K and 4 Karma for an example. Another part of this low power game is that our group decided a lot of the really cool toys described in the advanced sourcebooks should stay pretty rare and exotic. When running SR3 it was common for us to expand availability restrictions as follows, you can get anything in the Base Book with availability 8 or less or in an expansion book with availability 4 or less. No item with a street index greater than 2 can be taken at character creation. I understand this playstyle isn't for everyone, but it does happen to fit the "runners won't......" comment pretty well and still work with the SR Comp payscale as well.
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
Feb 10 2006, 12:58 AM
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#72
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Guests |
Ok, maybe, I was a bit unclear, or confusing because I tend to post arguments. that donīt support my personal point.
I do think runners should earn more than car thieves!!! What I was trying to point out, was that PCīs that have the means to make the same money as runners do, wont probably have the means to be a decent runner on the side. And itīs really no big effort to kill any pc. The syndicates have the money, they have the info and they have the contacts. If they want to do an example out of a pc, they could. Assassins donīt fight fair! Usually, neither players nore gmīs like this stuff to happen, but it may be the final option, if the pc asks for it. There are planty of others, have thair contacts killed, burn thair squatt, trash thair cars, whatever. A small group of very talented people donīt becom organized crime, because they have no organization of that magnitude. They can become made man and climb the herarchy, but if they keep pissing of some big boys, they will one day wake up and realize, they died a horrible death. The difference betweem cutting in a mobs biz and fragging a corp or a biz is, in the latter, you go low and sit out the heat, in the former, you keep coming again and again. You are predictable => you die. Cutting into the mobs biz (what independant carjackers would do) is not like pissing of random, powerfull people (thats what runners do), itīs like robbing the same corp facility over and over again, every month (no good idea). |
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Feb 10 2006, 01:36 AM
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#73
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Meh... I guess we see organized crime in completely different ways... I was never enamored of mobsters, never liked even the most romanticized portrayals of them, and as a result, in my view of the world, they're a bunch of thugs that are only good at preying on those significantly weaker than they are. Basically, in my take on SR, Corporations > Runners > Common Criminals I realize that it's not how everyone plays, but for me, the appeal of the game is to play or GM characters that are very good at what they do - top professionals at character generation, and only going up from there. Not that they should end up hunting dragons for sport or overthrowing AAAs, but if the local mob wants to mess with a team of prime runners... Well, they might get one or two, and then quickly come to wish they hadn't. There are disadvantages to being large and spread out, too - there's no way to hide all your assets, friends, and family. |
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Feb 10 2006, 01:44 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 201 Joined: 13-August 04 From: Fort Smith, Arkansas Member No.: 6,560 |
Enforcing encumberance rules gets most players to stop. Make some of the weapons he take be "hot" whether they were stolen or used in a crime. Set him up for murder. You can also leave his evidence (prints, tissue samples, etc) all over crime scenes. He could be questions EVERY week. Think the guy from The Mask but worse, always going back to bother him.
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Feb 10 2006, 01:55 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-July 03 Member No.: 4,891 |
My take on SR criminal organizations is that they're like corporations, only less so and illicit. If they want to make trouble for a powerful, respected group of shadowrunners, they'll probably hire another such group rather than trying to take the job themselves. They're not very powerful at any particular point - they don't need to be - but they're globe-spanning organizations with a lot of resources, should something really engage their attention.
I mean, if you were to wipe out every Yak in Chicago, the Yakuza would be pissed (as would Alex, as she'd've lost her ability to "recycle" dead teammates). They wouldn't be crippled, though, and they'd be highly motivated to prevent such a thing from ever happening again. |
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