 Hermetics and Shamans. |
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 Feb 12 2006, 09:53 AM
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#26
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Decker on the Threshold  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156  |
Thought-forms weren't too bad, honestly. The part where you could summon them on the fly into a "domain" of a very large radius around you was pretty good, even if they didn't have many good powers. What really sucked was how they were forbidden from using foci or fetishes. This never made much sense to me; if anything psionicists should have an easier time bonding or using foci. But the net effect was that psionicists in SR were nothing more than mages with a mental illness. |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:45 AM
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#27
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
For a hermetic mentor...
Hermes (the source of the tradition name) Trismegestris Thoth (who the greeks merged with the above into one god of intelligence/magic) The various combinations of the two above Various devils (faustian fun) Nuit (Crowley's star goddess) Whatever god the charcter worships (channeling power out of choice not being chosen by the power like a shamen) Ophis (no not me, where I stole the name from, serpent, apples and forbidden wisdom) EDITTED - for my own ego. This post has been edited by Ophis: Feb 12 2006, 10:47 AM |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:47 AM
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#28
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It's the same bonus that Elementalists got in MitS in SR3 (except for the Man part, which just shouldn't be there). Mits, 17. For SR4, it seems a bit... much, especially since their disadvantages were only -1 but for sorcery and conjuring tests.
Hm. I'd have it manifest as Anton LaVey, myself. While a toxic would manifest as one of his more fucked-up offspring. BTW, if a Mentor Spirit manifests as Isaac Newton but the PC doesn't recognize him, is his "plan B" guise Colonel Klink? |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:56 AM
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#29
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
For a more twisted mage, let me present to you: Eris - Godess of Discord
For more information read Principia Discordia - How I found Godess & what I did to Her when I found Her by Malaclypse The Younger. Learn the hidden secrets behind: *The Law of Fives *The Sacred Chao *Starbuck's Pebbles *Gospel According to Fred *The Epistle to the Paranoids and more (If in doubt, ask Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson games. He clearly knows about this secret society) |
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Feb 12 2006, 12:12 PM
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#30
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I'd assume that he'd just drop increasingly heavy objects on the magician's head while repeatedly asking "do you remember me now [insert increasingly vulgar epithet]. Hopefully, the magician remembers at apples and not bowling balls. |
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Feb 12 2006, 03:01 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! And whatever you do, watch for the fnords. |
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Feb 12 2006, 05:13 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Obviously the BBB contradicts itself. And I see no good reason to disallow adept Mentors.
That may be, but it doesn't make much sense to take a crippled Mentor Spirit. Also, the original question was about tradition-specific Mentors. While there is nothing to prevent cross-tradition Mentors, I would encourage using a different name at least (maybe using "the germ theory of Magic" in place of "Bear" for a mage). For adepts, ancient combat weapons might work: sword, shield, spear, shuriken, etc. Or, perhaps a little more enigmatically: leaf, page, smoke, bubble, beam (of light), shadow, etc. |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:13 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Hermetics wouldn't have a problem using mentor spirits. They would simply see them differently. To a hermetic, a mentor spirit would either be a manifestation of their own subconscious, an abstract concept taking on a concrete form for them, or a powerful free spirit offering power in return for following certain ideals that it identifies with. They wouldn't actually worship them, that's all.
Actually, though, it's not so black and white. An otherwise-agnostic hermetic might indeed worship his mentor spirit, thinking that it's the closest thing to a higher power that he can see. And some shamans, not able to reconcile their mentor spirit with the religion that they were brought up in, might choose to see it more abstractly as a "spirit guide". The one thing that the new edition gets right is to say that different cultures use different archetypes to depict the same things. So maybe that hermetic has the equivalent of the Moon Maiden totem, but just sees it as a sort of spirit of feminism, rather than an ancient Greek goddess. One last thing. In SR, hermeticism is used to describe a coldly logical, rather than intuitive, approach to magic. Hermeticism in the SR books is nothing like "real world" hermeticism. Of course, you could also say the same thing about SR shamanism and "real world" shamanism. |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:29 PM
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#34
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What the hell are you talking about? MitS and Old World Magic in SOTA:2064 makes it pretty clear that the number of Hermetics who follow a "a coldly logical, rather than intuitive, approach to magic" are in the minority. Even Renewed Hermeticism, which is by far the largest school relies just as much on ideological or pseudo-intellectual and intuitive concepts as it does on cold, hard fact.
But this topic, too, was argued to death last summer. |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:31 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 15-December 05 Member No.: 8,075 |
[QUOTE=ThreeGee,Feb 12 2006, 10:01 AM] [QUOTE]And whatever you do, watch for the fnords. [/QUOTE]
You can tell them by their four wheels, fast speed, honking horns, and apatite for gas. Wait, no. Those are FORDS. |
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Feb 12 2006, 11:05 PM
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#36
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
redwulf25_ci: Don't forget that King Kong died for your sins
You don't seriously believe that do you? So what, you look at what's described in the books about the traditions and say that—and only that—fell out of the blue on the day of the awakening? Ok. I prefer to take what I learned from studying theology in collage and view the Shadowrun magical traditions as a development from that. |
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Feb 12 2006, 11:36 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Based on this, I took the time to go through MitS and SOTA: 2064 (which I hadn't really read before). MitS doesn't provide anything to support your assertation, instead refering to hermeticism as "the science of magic". SOTA:2064 does lend some support, but it's very specific to Europe. The heart of hermeticism is that there are rules to magic and that by working inside those rules, you can make things happen. There are many schools which lend it some spiritualism, yes, but that's really just another way of looking at the rules of magic. |
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Feb 12 2006, 11:58 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 23-January 06 Member No.: 8,191 |
This change for magicians i thought was huge and deserved a story as well thought out as the matrix crash. And i miss all the different types of shaman spirits. And magic style specific spirits. Sure they where starting to merge but 6 spirits don't really do the richness of the world justice, (but the book does say this doesn't represent them all so we'll see what the magic book does for it)
Maybe a more indepth spirit creation type thing so that when you summon and air spirit you can remodel a storm spirit or something depending on how you put the points or something. For the rest types and abilities of summons etc. our group uses merits and flaws. if the shaman for instance WILL NOT bind spirits cause its wrong then its flaw and they get the points for it, and same for mages if they can't wrap there head around summoning without a cirlce and hours of chanting its a mental flaw , we use 5 point flaws but might change to 10 point if it seems to be a huge drawback in play. For spirits we just use description of look for now, as the upcoming magic book may flesh them out more. |
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Feb 13 2006, 12:47 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Sorry guys, but SL James is correct. Hermeticism in the Sixth World evolved directly from the ancient magical tradition. The material in SOTA64 does cover the Hermetic schools in Europe, but it provides a description of how the paradigms came to be and states that "Renewed Hermeticism" (the most scientific of the hermetic paradigms and the dominant paradigm worldwide back in 64) evolved from applying scientific principles to the art of magic. To put it simply there are rules to magic, they're just not purely scientific rules, but also esoteric rules - making it a science in the classical sense not in the sense that it is done in bland laboratories and sapped of all its intrinsic spirituality. The fact that the approach is scientific doesn't mean the methodology or the cosmology is. |
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Feb 13 2006, 01:03 AM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I don't know if we're arguing the same thing. I don't think anyone is dening the roots of many hermetic schools are in the old religions and magical practices. The point I'm trying to make is that the defining characteristic of hermeticism is the "magic has rules and works as a system" concept rather than anything from the past.
SR4 and MitS are both in agreement on this point. |
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Feb 13 2006, 01:12 AM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I have an idea for a new mentor spirit that works for hermetics.
This last one is serious. Too many requirements? Too few? |
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Feb 13 2006, 02:13 AM
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#42
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Too many advantages. It doesn't matter though, as it is actually impossible to acquire this totem; chargen forbids you from obtainning a maxing out two attributes, and I'm not sure it's possible by RAW to pick up a mentor spirit after chargen. That last requirement is an OOC one, and pretty stupid too; I'm not a good writer at all, yet I can toss out 1-2 pages about just about anything without a sweat.
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Feb 13 2006, 02:31 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
I politely decline to believe that you're being serious. I don't understand the justification for bonuses to health and detection spells, and the disadvantages are hardly disadvantageous (having a Logic and Intuition of 6 is not a bad thing the last time I checked). I would just say +2 to Manipulation and +2 to Man, and -1 to combat. Simple. But I also think that a real philosopher would distinguish among all the different schools of philosophy and be a patron to just one of them. (This one I would call "The Sophist.") |
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Feb 13 2006, 02:58 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
You could take Exceptional Attribute to avoid this problem. |
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Feb 13 2006, 03:11 AM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What should I cut down on? And would a 5-page paper suffice? Plus, I couldn't find anything banning having mentor spirits after character generation. As for the minimum stats, the Dragon totem has a minimum intelligence 6 requirement. Also, the detection spells were there to reflect that he's good at detecting logical fallacies and conundrums. This would keep him from being the Sophist or Propagandist. And couldn't I just have the Mentor Spirit edge be dormant until I get my stats high enough?
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Feb 13 2006, 03:52 AM
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#46
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
Emo--
Something more along the lines of: The Philosopher The Philosopher is the embodiment of thought. Rational thought and study of the world around him has led him to a greater understanding of himself. A seeker of knowledge not for personal gain but the betterment of understanding. Many Philosophers question long held views and snap decisions, often planning a course of action through to its end before beginning. +2 for detection spells, +2 for Negotiation Disadvantages: He has to make a Logic+Intuition (3) test to rush into a plan without proper preparation and forethought. |
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Feb 13 2006, 04:06 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
If your GM allows, you can get a mentor after chargen, it's simply more complicated than spending Karma (though it should probably be included too) Otherwise yeah, it'd take quite a bit to get all that. Might be better spending regular points than qualities... I like the hosed down one above better though. Fits more with the template of spirits. |
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Feb 13 2006, 04:50 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 9-October 05 Member No.: 7,827 |
Psionisists Should Be Allowed to use Foci&Fetishes
And like I've mentioned before-if you a a Psionistist Single Spell Adept you are basicly a Shadowrun Version of a Mutant (That is all) |
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Feb 13 2006, 05:09 AM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What if I upgrade him to, like, ubermensch or something that has all those flaws and advantages? And I've read about spirits that have more than the usual amount of flaws and advantages, so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.
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Feb 13 2006, 05:15 AM
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#50
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
By my math there are 2160 possible traditions to be made under the SR4 Rules. 2 are currently named, my guess is there is room for a lot of creation.
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