 Another realitybraker, subscription rule kills wireless hacking |
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 Feb 21 2006, 07:02 PM
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#101
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
It works fairly well both ways, both protecting but allowing chance of access. It also helps with the saving the signal problem. I found that suggestion and an example of how it works in an old thread here. If you have the time and stomach to dig back through the last 6 months of threads there are some ideas like this. Unfortunately I didn't keep the link to that thread when I came across it so I cannot properly credit the author. :( |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:13 AM
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#102
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
3 meters is a long way in the world described in SR4. if you're indoors, you're almost certainly within range of something--the thermostat, someone's cellphone, maybe even the light switch (if not the lights themselves). outside, you have to look a little harder and be a little luckier--but, hell, if two guards are standing around talking to one another, you can hack one's commlink and spoof the other's devices from there. light poles probably have wireless functionality for reporting whether their bulbs are burnt out, downloading the day's turn-on and turn-off times, or just repeating signals. the mailbox on the corner has a wireless uplink that informs the central office when a package is dropped in, for accountability. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:45 AM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
Which makes corporate security issues even more interesting in SR4.
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Feb 22 2006, 01:59 AM
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#104
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,283 |
All those points were musings on how the conceptual setup of the Wireless Matrix (WiMax?) might function using my knowledge. I know full well that it's no fun for a non-IT person to dissect realistic computer rules in an RPG, but what has to be done at some point is to lay out how it would work in reality, and then make abstractions to base rules off of. Someone in combat has an almost infinate number of options to maximize their advantage depending on the situation. In a hacking situation, it shouldn't be the same six dice rolls over and over again. It'd be wonderful to have options to suit your needs. I do kind of like the encryption interfering with transmission personally. It provides a very nice balance. However, for encrypted files, you're dealing with a totally different beast. Any encryption in the world is breakable given enough time and computing cycles. There could be SETI-at-home style hacking circles, which devote spare CPU cycles to cracking heavy encryption. You pay the rep a billion nuyen, give them the file, and they run it on their distrubuted network, and all those thousands and millions of comlinks run the program in their spare time. The subscribers each get 10 nuyen a month or something silly like that for their effort, or maybe they're zombies, victims of a worm or other virus. That's just a brute-force method. Other methods include infamous back doors, like in DES. The NSA can quickly and effortlessly crack any DES encrypted data stream, due to a back door in the encryption method required by law. I would imagine a large number of "official" consumer encryption methods would include these, seeded by either the corp that programs them, or the government that regulates them. Cracking then becomes a method of finding out this back door. |
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Feb 22 2006, 10:13 AM
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#105
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ugh, how could i forget. everything and grandma's cyberheart is wireless enabled... question then becomes, can they all support a full on node, or are they just devices with very high signal ratings? |
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Feb 22 2006, 11:24 AM
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#106
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, according to SR4 they are all ”average” devices and all wireless devices that can have an access to the matrix classifies as a “node” so I’d say between 1-3 in rating for civilian models since a cyberheart might have some kind of program running that informs grandmas Biomonitor about it’s status. Let’s not forget that the cyberheart might also be reporting it’s status to the hospital every two hours or so since grandma has the new bonus agreement with the hospital which makes the cyberheart a lot cheaper if they are allowed to monitor it. Still, all you need is a rating 1 node to leapfrog from since all that limits you is it’s signal. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:05 PM
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#107
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so in theory any device can support a program, hmm...
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Feb 22 2006, 12:10 PM
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#108
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Mindstorm-idea on the wireless problem:
Have encryption NOT be an extended test an require a threshold of (encryption rating) hits. Any decryption attempt not generating more then 1/2 threshold successes raises an alert. You could still hack any device, but using a designated entry point would offer the advantage of not having to beat encryption. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:25 PM
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#109
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
That entirely depends on how one interprets SR4 rules. Accordign to the book we have the whole Response VS Program thingy. Whenever you run X amounts of programs where X is your response your response is lowered by 1. With the Meta Link commlink one would get Response 0 after running 1 program. With a response 5 commlink you would get a cascading spiral of sinking response as soon as you run 10 programs. I will try to convince MY gm that any kind of Response TEST is affected by the above rule and not the actual hardware specification of the commlink. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:26 PM
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#110
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I ALWAYS assumed that encryption tests were made against the net successes X2 from an encryption test by the defending hacker. |
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Feb 22 2006, 12:54 PM
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#111
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
what i was realy wondering about was if every device is a node. if so then a lot of my theoretical basis for understanding the rules falls away, and i can understand the idea of devices in ones PAN cutting into the number of subscription one can keep and so on. in theory then one can ramp up the rating of the smartlink and basicly use ones gun as a kind of comlink/computer. the real question becomes, can any device support a avatar? as im guessing a kind of avatar is present when your accessing a node, be it via AR or VR. if so then you can in theory hijack the device and make it do stuff for you, like say using it as a stepping stone towards someones PAN... the thing is that i read "device" to refer to something similar to a bluetooth handsfree. a bit of electronics thats doing one thing and one thing only. while i see a "comlink/node" as being something like a smartphone/pda/pc. a device that can do diffrent things depending on what software you run on it. if any device is a node then basicly you can make that ear piece do all kinds of things, you just need to run extra software on it, via the avatar. as in, when you access a node, the avatar acts as a kind of bridge between the software your running on your comlink/node and the node your attacking. so if a smartlink or other device can support the existence of a avatar then one can pull of what mfb suggest, taking over a nearby device thats within the 3 meter range of the targets PAN and then spoof the devices in said PAN. hmm, remind me to bring along some flying microdrones. one could potentialy use them as signal relays and tell them to get close to the target. who cares about some buzzing insects? |
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Feb 22 2006, 01:00 PM
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#112
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
So that was always wrong I´m afraid. Encrypting a device is a simple action without test.
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Feb 22 2006, 01:21 PM
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#113
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, as a defense against any kind of intrusion you can always run encryption, databomb and IC on every device you own, including your cyberware, or any device that someone would theoretically be able to hack into.
Oh my god…I just found the most disgusting piece of tiered network you could imagine. Use your clothes as first line defense tiered networks with IC and databombs and have them hack your socks before they can reach your jacket and from that to your body armour and then further to your gloves and then FINALLY they can reach your heavily guarded “firewall” commlink with 5+ IC programs loaded on it… …If they get through all that they can hack your REAL commlink. This wont actually give you any efficient defence but it will buy you a lot of time since you might be wearing the following items 2 socks 1 sweatshirt 1 jacket 1 underwear 2 gloves 1 hat 1 body armour 2 shoes 1 external commlink 1 flashpack 1 holster 2 cyber commlinks Now, if basically EVERY device, piece of clothing etc is wireless enabled you’ve got yourself a haystack of wireless defence even if most general appliances have a device rating of 1. Yea, all it will do is buy time, but they still have to FIND every device since you can put EACH AND EVERY ONE of them into hidden mode, and have encryption on each of them. :eek: Lets see, find *looks up* 15 devices after each other, decrypt them, hack into them and then go to the next one, how much time is that? :grinbig: Still, there are rules for improving Response and Signal of any kind of device… A jacket with Response/Signal 5 anyone? That would be a well concealed Commlink. *EDIT* Oooh, even better, have a few Credsticks and they would have a device rating of 6 so you could have a few Credsticks as firewalls with a signal rating of 1 (hand held electronic device). Well, I’m not sure but somehow I don’t think this was how Fanpro MEANT it to function, except for runners though, average joe on the street would probably never think of using his credstick as a firewall but protect it BEHIND his commlinks firewall (using an empty uncertified credstick never crossed his mind). |
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Feb 22 2006, 01:48 PM
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#114
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
What I don't get, is why the hell dosent somebody from FanPro come on here and clearify some of this crap!?
It's not like there are a hundred SR4 forums out there. This is pretty much it. |
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Feb 22 2006, 01:50 PM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Why don't YOU submit the question to the FAQ people? |
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Feb 22 2006, 01:51 PM
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#116
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, I for one am gonna get VERY unimpressed if they don’t clarify all the Hacker questions with Networks, Nodes, Reponse issues and suchlike in the upcoming Unwired book, or whatever it is called.
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Feb 22 2006, 02:00 PM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
On the issue of nodes and devices:
Everything electronic that is connected to the Matrix is a Device. Every Device that can be accessed is a Node. Furthermore, the Sample Devices Table (p.214) gives us device ratings for things encountered in SR. As per page 213, Device Ratings, the Device Rating substitutes for every Matrix Attribute, for simplicities sake. Hence any device has Response, Signal, Firewall and System at the level of the device rating. Since it has these attributes, it can run software. What is connected to the matrix? IMHO Anything that will somehow need to transfer data wirelessly. In the civilian sector, probably anything. So that the user has the "comfort" to check the contents of his fridge, from his couch, without the need to go to the kitchen while watching a game on TV, or to order the lights in his apartement to turn off, just because he forgot it as he hurried to his job. Paranoid civilians will turn wireless off on most thingies. In the corporate sector, wireless will be cut down to a minimum. Only those devices in need of interacting with the matrix will do so, and only on the shortest needed range. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:03 PM
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#118
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Adam said so much in another thread some time ago. So thats offical. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:09 PM
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#119
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Aah, will that be added in an errata perhaps? |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:12 PM
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#120
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I dont think so.
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Feb 22 2006, 02:16 PM
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#121
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Nope. They will only have to find the starting point of that chain - after that, they simply can use the existing connections. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:22 PM
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#122
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Aah, but that’s where we have the fun part, there is no starting point. None of the items are in a subscription list to talk to each other, The first commlink is only using legal access and leapfrogs through them. In this rather extreme example there are several weaknesses, device rating of one means that anyone can manage to crash the OS or restart whatever software runs that particular node. The starting point can only be reached by either… A: Going through the chain of connections. B: Being within signal range of the device they want to hack. If the commlink is at a low signal setting they must be close enough to pick up the signal. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:24 PM
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#123
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No subscription - no connection, sorry. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:35 PM
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#124
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Where does it say that? That would mean that unless I have a subscription on my commlink against a website I cannot access it? Besides, that logic would basically make tiered networks impossible if you just had to go through 1 node and then skip five others to reach the source node. |
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Feb 22 2006, 03:48 PM
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#125
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, it just makes the idea that those nodes are not connected, yet should communicate somehow quite strange. ;)
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