Grenade launchers..., ...and why they might suck Options

[Space Ghost]

i've brought this up on random occasions, but i never got a real answer. Page 145 of the Big Book states that you make a ranged test opposed by the opponents reaction (+Dodge, if applicable). There is a -2 penalty for the targets defense test.

1. What happens is the target wins the test? Is the shot negated, or do you just end up at full scatter?

Also, there is an option to target an area, in which case you treat it as a success test instead of an opposed test. So here's the big question:

2. What happens when you decide to target an area where people are standing? Or you target an inanimate object, then scatter onto some people? They don't get a reaction roll? The defense roll for targets tend to have the effect of increasing your scatter(by reducing your successes), but you're already past the whole scatter step.

[PBTHHHHT]

Dont' forget that many folks who use grenade launchers also use with smartgun link (and since smart gun stuff can now be done with contacts and such, everyone should have 'em) and such so that the grenade is timed to explode at the desired distance in the air.

Let's say an opponent is using a wall to fire from cover on you, you fire your grenade and set to explode at a distance just past the wall. The grenade is aimed in the space above the wall, the grenade flies to that distance and is basically right next to the guy and explodes. No scatter needed.

[Galmorez]

The way I have been ruling it is that the grenade launcherer rolls to hit the target area they select. The target/s in the area make reaction or reaction + dodge depending on if they were using complex actions to dodge or not. Their hits on the dodge test mitigate damage from the grenade. Then, they make their damage resistance test against the final damage.

So, if you fire into a crowd of unarmored, normal folks, a frag grenade is going to kill and hurt a lot of people. Against a crowd of guys in military armor, it is most likely going to cause some stun damage and make them angry.

[BGMFH]

GLs are mostly useful in Heroic Last Stand moments.

[Space Ghost]

[DigitalSoul]

@Space Ghost:
The gain I would say is reducing the average scatter from 6.5 meters down to 2.5, a 4 meter difference overall.

[Space Ghost]

But it takes 3.5 successes to land on target with an airburst link, and only 1.75 successes without. That's a tough pill to swallow. Still i see what you're saying. But if the answer to question #1 from my original post is "Yes, the shot is negated", then losing 3.5 success means not hurting the target at all.

[Shrike30]

That reduced scatter also gets a lot more important when you're trying to "precision 'nade" a target... yeah, the averages work out better, but if you're launching grenades at targets that are much, much closer than you should safely be using that thing, having it scatter up to 18 meters off target can be a serious issue. The worst possible result with a linked grenade is 6 meters.

And it goes off in the same pass it was fired, instead of the next one (which has always irritated me with launched grenades, but are the RAW).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

AFAIS, the Airbust Table entry concerns rockets/missles...

[Space Ghost]

Huh. And the text says grenade launchers are -4 p/success, so that actually makes sense. They just left airburst grenades off the chart.

Thanks. A few sessions ago i used up 7 grenades just to blow up a single car. That discouraged me a bit since heavy weapons is the biggest dice pool i have.

[Hasaku]

[Space Ghost]

It's the note about sensors that wins me over. The chart says that the scatter is (D6 - 1p/success -sensor rating), which implies it's for the missile.

Also note what an airburst link actually does for scatter, on page 310. It says that it reduces scatter to 1D6, but doesn't say anything about changing the -X per successes. It stands to reason that the rockets stay at -1 p/success, and grenades stay at -4.

Wouldn't you find it odd that an airburst linked grenade would require more successes to land on target than a non-linked grenade?

[Shrike30]

I do find it odd, but I hadn't put that much thought or rules-fu into it. I kind of like your interpretation, although it means that you're almost always going to be hitting dead on target with a grenade, which is just amazingly lethal.

[Hasaku]

[Space Ghost]

True, but they could also be talking about the difference between a rocket and a missile. i believe the only difference is that one has a sensor rating (internal guidance), while the other is a "dumb" projectile.

[mfb]

i'm not sure why y'all are arguing so hard against using it. it makes sense, and it's not explicitly wrong. can someone explain why the airburst table shouldn't be used for grenades that burst in the air?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Space Ghost]

[Shrike30]

Yeah, but if it's 1D6-4, you're talking about an explosive weapon that's nearly always going to hit the guy you're aiming at, and puts him at a -2 to avoid getting hit. If you *want* people grenade sniping in your game, go for it, but that's a little too much on the "amazingly lethal" side for my tastes.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Not that there is much 'if' after the written rules, but 'grenade sniping' is exactly what air-burst is designed for. ;)

[sapphire_wyvern]

So... what about target characters who actually beat the hits on the attack roll?

I can't see any reason why anyone would ever choose to attack a character when you can have a success test vs. a location instead. Furthermore, the RAW doesn't really explain how to resolve defense against a grenade attack when there's more than one victim in the blast zone. Therefore, I'm thinking that I'll use a hybrid mechanic: all grenade-like attacks will use a success test against a target location to determine scatter, with net hits staging up. Damage stage down against each affected character will be determined by making a defense roll, followed by Body+Armor resistance tests as normal. Any lucky characters that manage to beat the attacker's original total hits on their defense roll will manage a "Hollywood jump" and completely escape the area of effect (no doubt with an orangey fire blossom occupying most of the screen behind them). Nevertheless, the grenade will still explode in the appropriate location as determined by scatter, and any other characters in that area will have to make their own arrangements. :)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That seems about to be what was inteded - of course, a more cruel ruling would be that area damage always hits the characters in the blast (even if they negated all sucesses), unless he is able to use movement to get out of it.