 Add risk and non-supernatural horror to the game, Diseases and torture |
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 Apr 19 2006, 11:28 PM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
Especially in young children complicated diarreah can be a very serious business. It basically kills through dehydration. It's a leading cause of infant mortality in the developing world. |
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Apr 19 2006, 11:33 PM
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#52
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I thought that would have been people swatting the flies on the eyeball too hard and causing brain damage, but I may have seen too many Sally Struthers commercials.
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Apr 20 2006, 01:19 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 7-September 05 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 7,706 |
I knew I should have worded my thread differently...
Then I might have ended up with a thread similar to this one, ie - no ED Horror discussions. I'll try harder next time |
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Apr 20 2006, 01:41 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Long-winded rant ahead:
That whole rape thing really bugs me. Honestly, I think it's completely irresponsible for a GM to use such an element without making absolutely sure the players can handle it. Yes, you have to make a horror game scary - and it's often real, or at least semi-plausible events, that are the scariest - but traumatic events should not be used as dramatic fodder without some serious research into player pasts first. This reminds me of a situation that happened recently in the Mage: The Awakening LARP that I play in: Apparently, one of the characters was given a magical camera by what looked like a kid (actually the "big bad" of the chronicle in a seemingly innocent disguise). By grabbing the camera, the character (an arrogant but powerful 14-year-old whose player, a college student, dresses up as Naruto to play as) ended up under the big bad's control, and while under the influence he raped an 8-year-old (or so the GM ruled, I'm assuming). Not just any 8-year-old, but the tribal chief's daughter (the city lies near an Indian reservation), whose rape appeared in the newspapers. Just as the big bad wanted, I assume. For the record, when my character (a samurai/militaristic sort, very much into righting wrongs and in general being a fighter for justice) heard about this, he put his hand to his wakizashi's hilt and was about to lop the prick's head off right then and there, until he was told the prick wasn't under his own control at the time. Anyways, what makes me bring this incident up is this: one of the women players in the game arrived late, and when she heard what this character had done, she (the player, NOT her character) became visibly upset and left the game, not returning for the night. I don't know this woman personally, so I don't know what's in her past, but judging by her reaction she has some pretty strong feelings for whatever reason. This incident led the GM next week to declare to the group that, if anyone had a problem with the plot for personal reasons, talk to the GM and they'd try to tone things down. Obviously, in a LARP it's practically impossible to poll EVERYONE and find out if they're comfortable with such elements (or at least in ours it is, given we have over 20 people), and it's even harder to make everyone happy while still going ahead with the planned plot. The best they can do is handle it with increased sensitivity, which is what the GM tried to do. In a smaller group, however, where things become more manageable usually, I believe the GM has a responsibility to do his homework more thoroughly and make it as comfortable as possible for EVERYONE. If a woman had that happen to her in the past but can handle the element coming up as long as it's handled sensitively, then do that. But definitely DON'T go into it blind - it's just plain disrespectful. As the book "Exalted: The Lunars" put it: "You don't have to worry about your fellow players' real-world previous experiences or opinions with necromantic sorcery or maruading river dragons, but rape isn't a fictional problem." |
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Apr 20 2006, 12:47 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
That is a terrible thing to roleplay anywhere. Not only that ... he made it child rape.
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Apr 20 2006, 01:53 PM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
I highly doubt the GM made him roleplay the whole event out. More likely, I think he just said "Ok, you're under the influence of the camera, and you do this" and just left it at that. I don't know for sure, since it happened in the game that occured just before I started attending again, but that's my theory given what I know of these guys, having gamed with them for a good four years. I don't know of any GM in that group that would be so irresponsible as to make a player roleplay the gory details of something that terrible. |
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Apr 23 2006, 11:15 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Hmm, let me play Devil's Advocate. In US society there seems to be a Puritannical aspect where violence and death is okay but sexuality isn't; this is the old argument about why parents cover the eyes of their kids when James Bond has sex but not when Bond blows away someone in cold blood. This issue was brought to the forefront of my mind recently when an elderly man from the FSM asked me, "isn't it better that we show love than killing?" So, I ask you...why is rape verboten because it isn't a "fictional problem", but murder and violence is okay when it clearly isn't a "fictional problem" either? I'm sure that there are many people in the US who have lived in slums with high crime rates at one point or another and perhaps had relatives murdered, or perhaps had traumatic experiences being the target of violence on the street. We also probably know a few people who are combat veterans and who may have had very traumatic experiences with violence Since violence and brutality are most definitely not a "fictional problem" why does it fall in a seperate category from sexual assault. If I run a Shadowrun game where a character (even a NPC) gets captured by gangers and is savagely beaten and tortured why is that so much more tasteful and better than a similar incident with some sexuality added? |
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Apr 23 2006, 11:25 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
You've got to be fucking kidding me... RAPE IS NOT ABOUT LOVE! It's about violence and brutality, and from what I've heard of the stories of victims it is a horrible violation that's a very different (and I'd venture to say more severe) form of violence than just killing someone. Simply put, rape is a form of torture. And rapists seem to think like torturers do - "Killing you is too easy. I'm going to violate you in the worst way and let you live with that pain." THAT'S what makes it so much goddamn worse than James Bond shooting someone in cold blood. I think it's offensive that you try to link a violation like that with "just some sexuality." And any respect I had for you just took a big fuckin' nosedive. |
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Apr 23 2006, 11:44 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I think you're misreading my last post. If you think that anyone would suggest that rape is about love then you're being quite silly. The point of the post was to question the distinction between violence and brutality with and without some sexual element to it. It sounds to me like you're saying that torture in general, then, has no place in any game, since in your last post you basically said that rape and torture are exactly the same thing. Is that correct? So, for example, if a Johnson has your arm sawn off in a really painful because he hates you for some reason, that's not allowed to happen. Is that correct? Incidentally, do you know what playing Devil's Advocate means? Just makin' sure, so that you don't get to upset... EDIT: I just noticed something.
I guess you got emotional at this point. Firstly, logically, you can't really make that statment unless you claim to have interviewed dead people. Secondly, what about the systematic massacres that took place in Rwanda, or the insanely cruel mutilations in Sierra Leone? Surely, you don't mean to write all these things off just because they didn't always have a sexual element to them. |
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Apr 23 2006, 11:47 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
If I could explain why rape is a more severe form of torture, I'd be a psychiatrist, not a journalist. It just seems to be, for all intents and purposes, just that - a much more severe form of torture. Don't ask me to explain it, it's just...different. And I know what playing Devil's Advocate is, and frankly I don't give a shit. I'm not in the mood to hear why people who have gone through something horrible in their real lives shouldn't be given consideration when they're supposed to be playing a fun RPG, hypothetical argument or not. |
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Apr 23 2006, 11:49 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
OF COURSE I'M NOT writing these things off! They're terrible, and they should never have happened. See my post above - I can't explain it, it's just different, and I'm not a shrink so I can't really explain it. |
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Apr 24 2006, 12:08 AM
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#62
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Love is not mutually exclusive to violence and brutality. In fact, they often go hand-in-hand. Most violent crime is perpetriated by people who love their victims and the vast majority of rapes are date rape/spousal rape. But that really isn't relevant to the problem at hand.
The problem is roleplaying rape. There is nothing wrong with roleplaying rape in and of itself. By some estimates a quarter of all men and a third of all women fantasize about rape (the statistics I found didn't differential from those who fantasized about being victims, perpertrators, or both.) The problem that arises from roleplaying rape is the same problem that arises from roleplayng nymphomaniac lesbians. Forcing one's own sexual fantasies into the nariative can violate interplayer and player-GM boundries and just plain creep everybody out. Certainly, there are various types of sex in the Shadowrun world but they just get glossed over, joked about, or transformed into absurd memes because most people play shadowrun for the violence, not the sex. For the sex, there is always BBSW. |
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Apr 24 2006, 12:17 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Hey, you're a journalist? Sweet! I had a friend who was a journalist once. I once learned in a media advocacy class that if the press ever comes to me I'd better speak with them. Otherwise they'll video tape me running away and hiding my face and that just looks bad. On the other hand reporters usually want more material for a story so if I interview with them in good faith they'll probably try to present my argument which is better than showing footage of me running away. Hmm, since you're a journalist, I'd better try to answer nicely and explain what I'm doing, instead of being acrimonious and logical like I usually try to be. OK, here we go. I made the post you got upset about to open up discussion on the issue of why most people would probably say that violence and brutality without sexuality is OK in a game, but with sexuality it's not OK. This isn't a commentary on violence and/or sexuality in real life. This is instead asking people to explore why we make this distinction in a *game* when, as you yourself has put, distinguishing between rape and horrible mutilation and torture is pretty much an empty academic effort, isn't it? Note that this has *nothing* to do with the issue of not granting special consideration. In fact, on the contrary, you'll notice that the post didn't dismiss the idea of special consideration, but rather asked why since there are possibly victims of violence among your gamers they also shouldn't be granted special consideration. I think that you got emotional and projected something that wasn't written onto the post after reading a few words. (Hardcore! Just clarified to a journalist!) |
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Apr 24 2006, 12:21 AM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
I think it goes beyond that. Yeah, putting one's fantasies into the open like that COULD creep everyone out - I really would not want to see everything that goes on in my GMs head in that regard - but in my opinion it's also about respect for those who have gone through something that horrible. Let me put it another way: say a player was from, say, Sudan and had been through horrific torture (from what I've heard, it's commonplace over there). I think it would be a matter of respect to see if he was ok with going through a torture scene in-game. By that same token, I think rape should be handled the same way. The only reason it's a more delicate matter is, I suspect, because people in Europe and the U.S. are FAR more likely to have gone through rape than they are to have gone through a Sierra Leonne torture room. As far as why killing in general is not treated the same way - I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with seeing it on TV all the time or in movies. I suspect people sensitive to that kind of thing (I mean seeing it on TV or in movies) wouldn't go for Shadowrun anyways, seeing as how it's an action game in a similar vein to a bloodbath-style action movie (which I also doubt they'd watch).
What does that mean (BBSW)? |
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Apr 24 2006, 12:28 AM
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#65
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
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Apr 24 2006, 03:31 PM
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#66
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
In general with this (and really, most related situations), the GM should say up front that this system/game/campaign may include death, violence, mutilation, sexuality, rape, etc. etc. The player in turn, if he or she is particularly sensitive to any of these, should indicate beforehand which subjects he or she would not like to be involved with and the two can work something out. This is called communication, and all players and GMs should engage in it (the GM's responsibility is to warn players what to expect in the game, the players need to warn the GM of particular problems they have).
Anyone playing in a violence-oriented game should expect there to be violence (of many sorts). However, I see no reason why a game that has perhaps tens or even hundreds of deaths per session should suddenly feel so squirmish about a single rape. The point of the RPG is to model itself somewhat off fo real life, right? We include tax evasion and generally bad people and paper cuts, right? Life sucks. If you don't want an aspect of the game in it, change it, but don't expect the GM to read your mind and avoid your particular taboo subjects. |
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Apr 24 2006, 05:46 PM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
well ... all rpg's include violence and death. The sexuality, I guess comes down to the comfort level of the GM and players. If a GM had an NPC trying to get it on with my PC I would be giving him the strange eye. Rolling dice for attraction well that's ok, especially if it helps the run or gains a contact, but rollplaying out the details, is very creepy. They have phone lines for that type of stuff. I have been in games where there was an assault in progress and we intervened. That is different when two NPC's are involved rather than two PC's.
Death is business, rape is a personal hate crime. I would have a problem with a character that shot every orc, or indian, or japanese person they saw just as much. I see death is sad and greivous but it has closure, rape doesn't until the victim gets to kill the purpotrator. |
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Apr 24 2006, 07:03 PM
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#68
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
That's not true.
Funny, I'd be far more creeped out by someone pointing a gun (even a play gun) at me than the same person flirting with me. Of course, by your example, rolling dice for character contact is the same level as rolling for combat, which we generally do in place of props, but my point is that you're expressing a personal preference not everyone shares. I have no problem with flirt in play.
While I disagree that killing the perp brings closure, I'm pleased to see that you think killing for fun is just as bad as rape for fun. I will say I've had some odd stories were sex (debatably rape) was business, for instance in the case of inheritence or breeding particular traits. Would you feel Aztechnology's forced breeding programs are better than a rapist in the street because it's "just business"? What if business happens to include scare tactics? |
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Apr 24 2006, 07:13 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Actually, no I wouldn't think that's any different. Just like I think Tamanous's forced implantation of embryos (described in the old Underworld Sourcebook) is little different from rape. |
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Apr 25 2006, 02:13 PM
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#70
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Not to be rude, HMHVV, but my question wasn't directed at you. You never indicated that killing is okay when it's just business. In my view of things, rape is rape and murder is murder, it's just as bad regardless as to whether you're paid to do it or not. However, Platinum seems to disagree, so I was testing his supposition.
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Apr 25 2006, 03:06 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I have not read Aztechnology, so I was not aware of the breeding programs. But I would rate them inhumane and akin to rape. I feel that in shadowrun, not everyone that is shot dies. I personally do not play savage killing machines, but when you are in the shadows it is basically like war. And there are casualties of war. People who die usually deserve it, people that die by my character's hands definitely deserve it. What I just cannot seem to bend my head around is people's mindset. I see shadowrun as a strategy game, where roleplaying is one of the tools, etc. Roleplaying rape is something I cannot understand because I see it in the same light as shooting an innocent baby. (I have seen other PC's do this. Right before I Tk'd them) but just do not have the capacity to perform these acts anywhere in my body. I cannot fathom shattering someone like that. I have seen its effects far too often. I guess I am not a good roleplayer/actor because I can't step too far out of my persona, but if you are roleplaying it, then it is for enjoyment, and if you enjoy doing something like that in a game you must have it somewhere within you, and I guess that is what bothers me. Now I know that I can kill someone if I have to. I have been put into that situation before and thankfully I didn't have too, but I had to protect my wife and daughter. I guess I am saying that murder is ok if there is a reason. I cannot see any reason for a rape. (if I was to get paid to do it, I would not take the job and Mr.J would be dead) |
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Apr 25 2006, 03:47 PM
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#72
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sometimes you're roleplaying it because it makes sense within the game. That doesn't mean you enjoy it, nor that you are a closet rapist, just that you're playing a game. |
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Apr 25 2006, 05:54 PM
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#73
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Nor am I. I made it up. But I think it would work in the context of the game. FASA/FanPro has avoided sexuality for the most part because rape IS such a taboo subject. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't take place in the world as it is set. Bunraku parlors anyone?
This is based on the assumption that the PCs are roleplaying the rape. No one in this thread thus far has suggested the PCs should roleplay out rape (except for you). Rather, rape was included as an aspect of the world, generally committed by NPCs or, in the example given, by a PC under an NPC's control. In the situation in question I also suspect the rape was just business, a means to draw another PC into doing something that meets the perps intentions. The example I gave was also 'just business' and didn't involve actions by the PC. As I said, if you personally don't like rape, that's fine, it's easy to leave out of the game world. It isn't really integral to anything. However, your personal preference has no bearing on, objectively, whether rape should happen in the game world. Rape happens in our world, it will certainly happen in the future in all sorts of forms. Some of these will be cold business (at least from some point of view, including oftentimes the provider of victims), and for others it will be passion. Regardless, it will happen and there's no inherent reason it shouldn't be included. If a PC engaged in rape, barring extenuating circumstances, I'd probably consider the PC mentally deranged in some form or another and would question how long he'll survive. I wouldn't begrudge any other PC who shot him dead (or, truthfully, any other PC who shoots the PC who shoots the rapist). |
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Apr 25 2006, 06:38 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
My mistake, I thought you were dismissing rape as nonconsequential since this is just a roleplaying game.
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Apr 25 2006, 07:59 PM
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#75
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Can we get a complete list of the number of fallacies in that statement, both explicit and implied. At this point I have: Emotional Appeal Enthymeme Existintial Assumption False Analogy False Choice False Delemia False Necessity False Premise Ignoratio Elenchi Package-Deal Fallacy Reductio ad The Fallacy of the Consequent Wisdom of Repugnance There are probably more. The heart of this problem is the premise that people who fantasize about things and enjoy roleplaying them will always enjoy them in reality. This is obviously false. In fact, it is quite possible for people to enjoy roleplaying things that they would find repulsive in reality. Take, for example, being the victim of torture. It can provide a great cathartic roleplaying experience, in my opinion. Of course, while I might enjoy having a character subjected to the electrified testicle clamps I would not take one bit of pleasure from it in reality. In fact, I would prefer to not be tortured in reality and would dislike it if I were. Next is the False Analogy, the comparison of roleplayed "rape" to actual rape, The two could not be any more different. The act of roleplaying such a scene is, by definition, founded upon the consent of all involved. Without this real consent it ceases to be roleplay and become real. This real consent is shrouded by the characters' lack of consent but it is still always there for the performers. This starkly seperates the act of roleplaying a rape scene from actual rape which is, by definition, non consensual. And finally, the Package-Deal Fallacy. The assertion here is that the capacity to roleplay rape and the capacity to commit rape are mutually inclusive. This, however, is not at all true. According to studies referenced earlier, about 24% of men and 36% of women fantasize about rape. This percentage is no higher amongst convicted rapists than amongst the general population. Therefore, more than 2/3 of rapists are unable to fantasize about rape. Likewise, the number of people who fantasze about rape is far larger than the number of people who commit rape. Seriously, at this point I recomend some research into BDSM, sexually roleplaying, and rape fantasy to help you better understand the difference between what people enjoy as fantasy and what people enjoy in reality. There are plenty of other example s I can give of people enjoying something as a fantasy but disliking it as a reality. Age-play amongst people who are not actually attracted to children is a good example. Also, try vampire roleplaying amongst people who know that they aren't really vampires. edit: added Wisdom of Repugnance to the list of fallacies. |
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