 Add risk and non-supernatural horror to the game, Diseases and torture |
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 Apr 25 2006, 10:49 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
Hyzmarca wins the thread, again. Using logic, no less. I'm impressed.
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Apr 26 2006, 03:27 AM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The thing is, the examples that he gives (vampire roleplayers, BDSM, etc.) all involve people who share the same kinks, and who know what they're getting into. That's the biggest difference between killing and rape in Shadowrun. If you sit down to play a game of Shadowrun, you expect there to be violence and possible killing. Rape is a completely different matter. I'm not talking about it being out there, as part of a bleak distopian environment, or even happening to a PC but being glossed over. I'm talking about the GM suddenly starting to describe the scene in vivid detail.
I disagree with Nezumi's statement "don't expect the GM to read your mind and avoid your particular taboo subjects." I don't think it's the responsibility of every player to individually sit down and tell the GM exactly what things disturb them. I think if the GM is going to deliberately introduce things into the game that are intended to be disturbing, then it should be his responsibility to make sure that everyone will be okay with it. Especially something like rape, which many people may have actually experienced. But that also goes for horror roleplaying in general. You are not only introducing some potentially disturbing things, but you are also changing the traditional power dynamics of the game. Horror games involve a lot more railroading and GM fiat by their very nature. They require more trust. If players merely see their PCs being abused, they will probably be less likely to get "into" it. They will complain, be more concerned with the TN modifiers than with the descriptions of the actual injuries, and will probably write their characters off once they get too maimed. They will use jokes and puns to break the mood, and shrug impatiently while waiting for you to finish describing what happens to their character. And they will probably be more concerned with getting revenge than on any of the rest of the plot - and they may lose interest altogether if revenge isn't possible. |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:29 AM
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#78
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That is an Ignoratio Elenchi. It is true and I completely agree with you. In fact, I stated so earlier in this very topic.
This is beside the point. I was responding to Platnium's claim that everyone who enjoys roleplaying rape must want rape in reality. This common sense conclusion, like most common sense beliefs, seems correct on its face but is easily proven false. It is quite possible for an individual to enjoy playing a character who is a rapist without wanting to commit rape. In fact, one can enjoy being the dominant partner in rape roleplay while being so turned off by actual nonconsensual sex as to be psycologically incapable of commiting a real rape. Likewise, one can enjoy being the submissive partner in rape roleplay without asking for it in reality. That is my point. I agree completely that players and GMs should respect each others boundries and that everone should understand the flavor of the game from the begining. Of course, it is possible for the flavor of a game to be inconsistant and a well roleplayed game can evolve in unexpected ways. This is why respecting everyone's boundries is so important. In all but the most dangerous and least accepted BDSM roleplaying the submissive partner seems to give of a degree of control over the scene but in reality retains absolute control over it. At any time either partner can break character, use a safeword, and end it. The same mechanism can be applied to tabletop roleplaying. If events become intense for a player or for the GM that indivdual should be able to stop things and refuse to continue in that direction. Any gamer who doesn't respect such a decision should be shot, set on fire, shot twice more while still on fire, put out, and then set on fire again. In the BDSM community refusal to accept a safeword is the most heinous crime one can commit. So it should be for the P&P roleplaying community. However, something important has been glossed over. HMHVV Hunter and Platnium weren't objecting to hardcore immersive roleplaying. They were objecting something so simple as a single informative sentence of the form "[PC's Name] rapes [inconsequential NPC]." Platnium seems to have been coming from the position that such a simple sentence should be grounds for orbital bovine bombardment before it creeps them out. It seems that Platnium doesn't want anyone to go there. At all. Ever. Because it creeps Platnium out. They have the right to be creeped out and I certainly respect their boundries ... BUT ... Excuse me, there is an entire Law and Order series dedicated to going there and it gets consistantly high ratings despite being pitted against the best lawyer show William Shatner ever starred in. Every other episode of every other television series goes there. The fucking Sopranos went there Movies don't go there nearly as often but when they do they go their ten times bigger as is befitting the big screen. Ever watch the local news? It's all rape, child molestation, rape, murder, political corruption, child rape, sports, something funny, and weather. Rapes happen, yes, but the rate that they are reported compared to more important news is disproportionate to the rate at which they occur in relation to more important things. Just look at it. Kobe Bryant. The Michael Jackson trial. Just step back and look at it all. Rape sells. Rape sells because 24% of all men and 36% of all women are willing to admit that they enjoy rape and there's probably a shit pot load more who like it but are too scared to say anything. And, of course, "But on SVU the rapists are the bad guys, we only like it because they go down in the end", someone retorts. To that I say, fuck you, you fucking fucking hypocrits. Oh, we all get to feel good about ourselves when the evil rapists gets his just deserts at the end of the episode but that isn't why so many people watch, not by a long shot. People watch so they can learn the juicy details. They get to identify with the heroes and feel all warm and fuzzy about their motives but the real vicarious thrill comes descriptions and the details of the crimes both explicit and implicit. It is the same reason televised trials are so captivating. |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:39 AM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
You're seriously misunderstanding me (or conveniantly forgetting things from earlier in the thread). As a roleplaying element, I think it has it's place. I DON"T think that place is as a description of EVERY GORY DETAIL of the act. A one- or two-sentence description is more than enough. I NEVER said that it should never be in RPing at all. I said that GMs NEED TO TALK TO THEIR PLAYERS ABOUT IT FIRST! GMs have to be sensitive to their players, and I think to do anything less is irresponsible. My exact words were:
and:
I never said it should absolutely never be used in-game. Honestly, facing a villain capable of doing such things would probably make it that much more satisfying to bring him down in the most painful manner possible (I tend to lean towards playing justice-seeking type characters quite a bit). |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:50 AM
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#80
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I noticed the mistake before you posted. and correctd it, sorry about that.
Of course, I'm more interested in your opinion about an otherwise heroic robin-hood esque philanthropist nice-guy PC in the following situations. A)being a little too agressive on a date and refusing to accept no for an answer but (s)he didn't fight back physically. B)Raping a villian as a form of revenge or retribution. C)Keeping a harem of personafixed ex-villians. edit: Note that I'm using "guy" as a gender-neutral term. If you'd feel differently about a female rapist PC than a male rapist PC then please say so. |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:53 AM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
He's finally lost it. Quoting himself and then shooting down the post. I guess it's only a matter of time before the urges turn inward, eh? :D |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:55 AM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
What the hell kind of scary-ass characters are you playing?! Seriously though, about those situations: A) I've never had the opportunity to RP a date, but if I did, I would sure as hell not RP a date rape (mostly because I don't make my characters with those kinds of character flaws, because I know I'd be uncomfortable RPing them) B) No way in the thousand hells that a character of mine would do that either. The worst one of mine would do is a massive beat down, followed by letting the fucker bleed to death. C) Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?! See my comment about scary-ass characters above. |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:58 AM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I've done B before. The punishment fit the crime. We didn't RP it out beyond me giving a few details to ensure that the GM knew how far the character was willing to go to get his revenge.
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Apr 26 2006, 06:14 AM
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#84
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Don't take things out of context.:P I was quoting my previous statement to prove that I had previously agreed with Glyph's assertion. The entire assertion was unrelated to the point I was trying to make in the post that Glyph was referancing. (Just in case you really are that dense.) 8) HMHVV Hunter, I wasn't asking about what your characters would do, per se. Rather I was asking about what your reaction, as a player (and a GM), would be if someone else's character did these things. I didn't mean to imply that the date rape was in RP. It could just as easily be part of the character's background that just comes up for some reason or another (victim seeking revenge, perhaps). As for C, giving villians who are too dangerous to let live a second chance with new personalities is certainly better than killing them. |
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Apr 26 2006, 07:06 AM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No use trying to cover it up. Your insanity has slipped through the cracks and that door can't be unopened. ;)
Only if you think that having your personality and memories whiped away is different from death, but that's a whole other topic altogether. :) |
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Apr 26 2006, 07:25 AM
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#86
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Hyzmarca: I wasn't really disagreeing with you, just using your examples as a springing-off point for my own little spiel.
As far as the three hypothetical examples, I don't think most of the characters that I have played would approve of any of them, committed by another PC or NPC. The most amoral of them would be, at best, apathetic. A. is the least defensible, since it is perpetrated against someone who cannot be said to "deserve" it. Their being too scared to fight back mitigates the crime in no way. B. is where I would show a bit of hypocrisy. If the villain was, himself, a rapist, then some of my characters would consider it "poetic justice". An example of that would be Midnighter's revenge when Appollo was raped, in The Authority. On the other hand, it would probably change my character's opinion of the person doing it. Deserving victim or not, that person has still demonstrated that they are capable of doing such an act. So my character would probably start to wonder if the PC/NPC was capable of doing that to a less "deserving" victim. C. would probably be considered monstrous by most of my characters, much more so than simply capping the bad guys would be. Combining slavery, brainwashing, and rape would be too far beyond the pale for them to accept even if the victims were scum of the earth. |
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Apr 26 2006, 10:05 PM
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#87
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
O RLY
I'm glad we could discuss the appropriateness of the issue in the context of gaming in that calm, rational manner. |
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Apr 27 2006, 03:31 AM
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#88
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Holy crap, step away from the board for a day and hyzmarca writes a freaking novel. I would like to see references with actual stats, because 93.234% of statistics are made up on the spot.
BS. If you enjoy it in roleplaying then there are elements that you will enjoy in real life. You might not like the sensation of electrified testicles, but I am sure the kink/bizarro factor would turn you on. Roleplaying gives you are safe way to experience scenarios, roleplaying just circomvents your inhibitions because it is not reality, but there still is some element of you that enjoys or wants to. |
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Apr 27 2006, 03:36 AM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I have to completely disagree with this, but there's just so much crap in it I don't know where to begin. One question though: Do you enjoy playing a game where you break into an office, steal some stuff, and then kill the security gaurd on the way out because he spotted you? If so, when do you plan on starting your career as a thief and a murderer? Some people play characters that are themselves (or who they want to be) but with different skills and abilities. Some people play charaters that are nowhere near the people they actually are (or want to be). |
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Apr 27 2006, 04:03 AM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Actually ... I do really enjoy sneaking into places undetected. And I admit that if the world was more lawless I probably would have shot a few people. truth is, I don't have a problem with shooting someone if the situation warrants it.... and stopped being a thief after I reached the age of majority. There was a huge thrill factor. I never said I would have a career change, I said that some element of you has to get off on it, or at least the idea of it. I am not sure if when you roleplay you visualize everything. When I roleplay, there is a movie rolling through my brain, and I can see, hear, smell, feel everything my character does. I get to make some decisions based on the situation I am in, and the GM orchestrates the external setting.
I guess I keep thinking that if you are playing a character you have to be able to identify with them, and actually become them. I have played chars that are not at all like I am, but usually those are more mechanical, and wind up being more of a choose your own adventure than a roleplaying session. |
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Apr 27 2006, 04:14 AM
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#91
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
My statistics come from Wikipedia which cites This Page which cites Knox, D. (1984). Human sexuality: The search for understanding. This Knox fellow seems to have a decent reputation. http://www.wadsworth.com/cgi-wadsworth/cou...issn=0534363539
Actually, I am turned off by torture, despite my BDSM referances. A light spanking can be nice, but that's beside the point. My feelings for torture roleplaying as a cathartic release are as non-sexual as anything can be and is probably a mild form of Mary Sueism. You can't have a Mary Sue who doesn't endure tragic suffering. |
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Apr 27 2006, 04:29 AM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So then you would enjoy the cold-blooded murder of someone who was just doing your job? There is something inside you that wants to see people die and have their children mourn them? How does that make you better than people who put a rape in their game? Simply because you can't roleplay someone you can't identify with doesn't mean that everbody suffers from that inability. Or do you think that because Anthony Hopkins played a believable Hannibal Lecter he must somehow fantisize about and enjoy the idea of cannibalism? |
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Apr 27 2006, 02:31 PM
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#93
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
As dark as it sounds, there is a snapping point that I could reach and yes, have the capacity for cold blooded murder. (for example, the guy from nova scotia that just went and killed those sex offenders, I could do that for a living) There might be a few people that will mourn them, but meh... can't make an omelette without braking some eggs.
I don't know if he fantasizes about it ... that is not what I was saying, but I do think he gets a thrill from the idea. How can you play 3 movies about such a character if you don't have any interest in it? He might not like the taste of human flesh, if he tried it, but I think that the capacity for such acts is there. |
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Apr 27 2006, 02:48 PM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
So by that logic: -Thomas Jane wants to be a vigilante (he played The Punisher in the 2004 movie) -Brent Spiner wants to genetically engineer psychotic killers (playing Dr. Arik Soong who did just that in "Enterprise") -Michael Douglas wants to cheat the stock market ("Wall Street") -Stephen Dorff wants to drink blood ("Blade") -Ron Livingston wants to be a major corporate thief ("Office Space") -Alan Ford wants to be a psychotic crime boss that feeds people to pigs (Brick Top in "Snatch") The list could go on forever, but I think you see what I'm saying. |
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Apr 27 2006, 03:12 PM
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#95
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
no .... read this SLOWLY ... I said you have the capacity and you probably enjoy it on some minor level, not that you are going to become totally immersed in it. |
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Apr 27 2006, 04:05 PM
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#96
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Platinum, do you have any support for your claim, or are you simply deriving something from your own preferences and applying it to everyone else in the whole world?
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Apr 27 2006, 04:32 PM
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#97
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Perhaps he's living by his sig. quote :P |
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Apr 27 2006, 04:48 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Mainly just opinions based on what I have learned in psychology courses and discussions with several psychologists about roleplaying. Same amount of support you guys have. |
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Apr 27 2006, 05:09 PM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Not quite the same, as hyzmarca cited sources.
So Stephen Dorf enjoys drinking blood?
You might be surprised at the kinds of things people will act out for 50 gajillion dollars. :) |
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Apr 27 2006, 05:22 PM
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#100
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
It's worth pointing out that there's a difference between enjoyment and interest. I enjoy studying (most of) my interests, but I have interest in things that I gain no enjoyment from.
I will oftentimes play a character completely disimilar to me to the point that I personally actively dislike him (this is especially true as a GM) not because I enjoy what he's doing, but because I'm curious if I can see the world like him for a while. |
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