 Metal Storm Technology, Would Corps be using this? |
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 Feb 22 2006, 08:21 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297  |
Hello,
First post. I was reading this thread on the Sakura Fubuki and did a little research on the Metal Storm Technology. (Original post: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11892) Does anyone think that corps will be using this type of tech for arcology / office defense? What about drones? Could a SR get his hands on a drone linke this? (These are both Flash files for ease of viewing.) Stationary Area Denial: http://www.metalstorm.com/clientuploads/di...Trials_2005.swf Woundn't this be a nice little drone?: http://www.metalstorm.com/clientuploads/di...40mm-UGV-01.swf |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:30 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Seeing as how the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has got some M134s, I don't think certain MetalStorm applications, like close air defense systems, would be out of the question. However, grenade launchers like those you linked would be out of the question except when the area being defended is more than a few miles in every direction. Using a system like the ADWS to protect a corp office would be about as silly as setting up some Claymores to protect a kiosk.
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Feb 22 2006, 09:27 AM
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Silly? But what if it is a very valuable kiosk and you make sure to pay careful attention to little details like FRONT TOWARD ENEMY? :)
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Feb 22 2006, 12:32 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I did some extensive reading on metal storm a few months back, when i run across the Sakura Fubuki.
Corporations would use metalstorm weapons, cops would, soldiers would, runners would... Perhaps not as an area denial weapons platform ;). I would not use metal storm in my shadowrun, since it's not incorporated in the background and would yield strange results with current rules :eek: . |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:19 PM
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Metal Storm's best applications are missile defense and air denial. It is overkill for ground denial and useless for infantry.
Consider the problems inherent to the system. 1) Ammo capacity is limited by barrel length, making it fairly useless for pistols and rifles. The Fubuki gets around this by using multiple barrels but that means greater weight. 2)Because ammo is limited by barrel length clips and magazines are not interchangable between weapons. A box magazine that is issued for a M16 can be used in M4s, AR15s and every other variant of the rifle. A metal storm clip will be limited to weapons with exactly the same barrel length. 3)The first bullets in the barrel will have drasticly lower muzzle velocity than later bullets. this will slaughter accuracy. The only way to remedy this is to put a mor epowerful propellent in earlier bullets. This wil make it impossible to break up clips and reload one at a time. 4) Electricaly primed propellent can present its own problems, specificly with tazers and lightning-slinging magicians. The latter isn't much of a problem today but it would be bad to have all your bullets to go off due to electrocution. 5) It shoots too fast, seriously. With less ammo (5 shots in a rifle, maybe) a ROF of thousands of rounds a second will leave infantrymen reloading every .02 seconds. 6) Without its absurd rate of fire it offers no advantage in smaller calibers and carries far too many disadvantages to be taken seriously. For infantry, it is useless in anything smaller than a grenade launcher. An over or under barrel grenade launcher is the most realistic infantry use of Metalstorm. A law enforcement agency may be able to load such a launcher with less lethal ordinance such as giant nets. It will never replace the basic sidearm. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:44 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The current Metal Storm weapons all have varying amounts of propellant between the projectiles to maintain similar muzzle velocity, though reloading barrels one round at a time would be just about impossible in field conditions anyway. Since carrying extra ammunition would mean carrying extra barrels, the weight of ammunition goes way up. This is one additional reason why Metal Storm technology will never replace conventional small arms. Accuracy will be slaughtered anyway by the deformed projectiles. Incidentally, no Metal Storm rifle platform has ever gotten as far as the prototype stage.
This is not an issue, since Metal Storm weapons can be programmed to fire at just about any rate of fire.
It is also the only type of hand-held Metal Storm weapon that's ever been seriously considered for use by any armed force, as part of the Australian AICW VX3. |
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Feb 22 2006, 02:56 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
Metal storm grenade launchers have also been considered for fire fighting and non lethal munitions - such would be of great use to every megacorp. Of course, a Metal Storm gun has to be computer controlled so hackers will have a field day :)
A proposed handgun from the company offered the possibility of firing a second shot while the first bullet was still in the barrel - increasing the velocity and penetration of the first shot. That would be a useful feature as well. |
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Feb 22 2006, 03:13 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
No more useless than, say, a break-action shotgun or a revolver. Lets say you can only fit four bullets in a pistol barrel while still having enough of a muzzle velocity on the first to be effective. Well, so? Give it two barrels, and you have a gun about the same size as a revolver, but far more flexible. More ammo; can fire one, some, or all of its ammo in a single shot; about the same weight as the revolver; similar performance profile; and just as easy to re-load. Same weight as the revolver, I say? Close, yes. Say it's a 6-shot revolver; this has two more bullets and an extra barrel, but no action of any kind. It might be slightly heavier, but not much. Sure, the barrels a significant weight... But the barrel on a metal storm can be much lighter than the barrel on a quality pistol. MS barrels are disposable; they have to survive... Well, in this case, 4 shots. If it fails, you replace it instead of re-loading it later; re-loading is a hassle anyway. On the other hand, the barrel on a regular pistol has to survive hundreds if not thousands of shots, and resist warping in heavy (say, 100 shots per hour) usage. Hell, it could even just be a tough plastic; if it melts after the fourth shot... Well, it's empty anyway. One other interesting thought; ammo types. Lets say your Metal Storm Pistol has two barrels; there's nothing stopping you from having one regular, and one gel; or one explosive, and one APDS; or whatever mix you want. And, unlike most guns, you can easily select which to fire at any time... Or just fire both. Though I shudder slightly at the rules for mixed-ammo bursts. Also, even with speed-loaders, loading a revolver is - at best - fidgety. A speed-loader has to be designed to break away quickly, which means it's inconveniently shaped/sized, leaves the bullets exposed, and prone to having bullets fall out of it. A metal storm barrel, on the other hand, is a self-contained and far more robust method of loading, and less awkwardly shaped/easier to store/carry.
Why not? If you have a common barrel mount with a detachable stock and optional barrel rest, you should be able to attach a barrel of pretty much any length to your gun. In fact, if your barrel mount is designed right, they don't even ahve to be the same calibre barrel! That seems more than flexible enough, to me.
Or just accept a slower/less accurate bullet for the early shots. They'll have somewhat less penetration value. Oh well. You could also design it such that the ammo only fills the first half of the barrel; the speed/power imparted into a bullet by the propellant is a decreasing function, anyway; you get much more power over the first half of the barrel than from the second. Friction and air pressure build up. Anyway, re-loading on the fly is not an in-combat thing; you have to ram the bullets down the barrel and seat it correctly over the ignition device, but also, there's no guarantee the barrel is clean enough to JUSTIFY re-loading. You're going to be ramming all sorts of crap down on top of the next bullet. Your best answer is just to un-load it and up-check the barrel first anyway.
Or, just insulate your barrel mount; then the tazer has to hit the barrel to cause any problem of any kind. And if a mage drops a flame spell onto your ammo, it's gonna go up in ANY gun, so that really isn't a drawback just of these.
...But on the same token, you don't have to fire them all; fire a couple. This is one of those places where smartlinks and wireless connectivity are priceless; setting the number of bullets to fire and what barrels to fire them from would be a free action at worst.
See my above posts; it offers the advantage of flexibility. Have a mediocre shot? Shoot one bullet. Have an ambush? Shoot them all, and put him down for the count. That's better than some standard pistols, if not most. It offers all the functionality of a revolver, with the added option being able to burst-fire, and no real drawback; yet revolvers still exist in 2070... |
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Feb 22 2006, 03:28 PM
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
I beleive the worry was a lightning bolt setting off all of the shots at once. |
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Feb 22 2006, 03:51 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A Metal Storm handgun may compare favorably to a revolver, I won't try to argue there. That alone would justify the existence of a few such handgun designs (like the Sakura Fubuki) and these being around in decent numbers. But I would like to make sure everyone keeps in mind how common revolvers are these days when you look at LEOs and armed forces, so people don't get too excited.
You could do this with a handgun, where complete lack of accuracy beyond some 50 meters wouldn't be as big of a problem, but there's really no point. As you said yourself, reloading the barrels would not be possible in the field, so you might as well preload all the barrels with varying amounts of propellant.
That's how it'll be done anyway. You'd have to put in a hell of a lot more, and a different kind of, propellant to get the same muzzle velocity with just 3" of barrel as you would with 8". The MV variation would be insane, to the tune of 300fps with handguns.
I assume that this was in response to the first sentence of the sixth point and you still agree that "For infantry, it is useless in anything smaller than a grenade launcher"?
If it's a remote controlled gun, then it certainly has to be computer controlled, but not necessarily if it's handheld. At its simplest, it could function like the Remington EtronX -- that doesn't look like a hacker could do much with it. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 22 2006, 03:57 PM |
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Feb 22 2006, 04:29 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
It was indeed directed at the first sentence. I do disagree with the second, however, I think it's a viable and flexible replacement to pistols or any magazine- or break-action weapons. There are trade-offs, sure, and it's not flat-out better; but it has its up-sides. And, of course, it is quite a good short-duration area denial weapon. The one place where I feel it just flat-out loses is long-arms - machine guns, rifles, assault rifles, etcetera. Too much of their utility is based on the length of the barrel (and the accuracy/power that imparts), plus a 2- or 3-foot metal storm barrel is far less viable to carry in bulk than, say, a 6- or 8-inch one. |
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Feb 22 2006, 04:30 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Yes, I realized. However, I was just pointing out that while lightning would still be a potential threat to the metal storm, it's no more so than fire is to a normal weapon - except that if the metal storm is discharged, all the bullets discharge down the barrel, while if a normal weapon discharges, all the bullets destroy the weapon catastrophically. |
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Feb 22 2006, 05:41 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
It would not be hard to build a breech-loaded metalstorm weapon or something like that. (So you don't have to carry multiple barrels, just cartridges).
You could probably even build a gun similiar to an automatic rifle, where instead of single shots a metalstorm cartridge containing numerous shots is loaded... |
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Feb 22 2006, 05:53 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It wouldn't? I'm sure Metal Storm would be glad to hear that.
I seriously doubt the barrel of a Metal Storm weapon could handle the pressure of all the cartridges igniting at the same time. |
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Feb 22 2006, 06:10 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
One of the other possibilities presented in a MS tech hand gun is the ability for unconventional designs. It would be trivial to have a hand gun with a bull-pup-ish design (if such a thing would help a hand gun), or even a grip on an adjustable rail so you can balance the gun which ever way works best. Barrels on the top and bottom to fire at the same time to improve accuracy. The odd designs could be used for increased concealability or to assist in recoil compensation, and while they may not be any easier than a revolver, the performance increase in the designed area could be popular.
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Feb 22 2006, 07:44 PM
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 18-October 05 Member No.: 7,855 |
Actually, it's been done. In their 36 barrel prototype they fired all 36 barrels (each had 5 rounds in them) in one go for a 1 million rpm demo. |
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Feb 22 2006, 07:48 PM
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Given that they tested their 40mm platform firing at "1 million rounds per minute (hypothetical)" as they called it - I.E. lobbed every round in every barrel in the assembly as fast as they could (it sounded like one very loud pop), I don't. They called it "hypothetical" because... well, it was over too quick to test the sustained firing rate for longer than a tenth of a second. When you have an electrical firing system, firing 'as fast as you can' effectively means 'everything at once'. While the pressure tolerance might be less for a rifle, they pretty effectively proved the 40mm platform could handle it. Edit: Damn, Zeitgeist beat me out by seconds. |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:04 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I didn't notice that test, where did you find it? [Right, the 36 barrel stack, which makes for about 30,000rpm per barrel.] The highest RoF quote for a single 40mm barrel that I could find was 30,000rpm. That's 500 shots per second, which means the previous projectile has traveled something like 15cm before each shot. That's a completely different situation from having all the rounds go off at the exact same time. The pressure the barrel has to deal with in a simultaneous ignition is orders of magnitude greater than with even the highest cyclic RoF fire.
This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 22 2006, 08:05 PM |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:28 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Thanks for all the input!!
However, I wasn't really trying to start a new debate on the merits or flaws of the MS technology in a handgun. I got some good answers on whether area denial in an arcology would be possible. Would there be drones using the high rate of fire for slugs and not grenades? Thanks, |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:30 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I admit I'm not up on my structural engineering when it comes to gun barrel design, but this doesn't sound correct. Can you back it up with math? |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:40 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I can't give you an equation on that, but it seems obvious when you consider the volume available for the expansion of the propellant gases. Having an 3cm gap between the projectiles instead of 18cm means 6 times as much pressure, and as you work backwards to the last round in the stack that keeps getting multiplied. |
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Feb 22 2006, 08:51 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A gatling gun is better suited for that -- it's as reliable, more accurate, and should be both smaller and lighter when you're going for thousands of rounds of ammo. If you don't need much ammo then the Metal Storm system might have an edge in size and weight, so if you want a drone that only delivers a short spray of total area saturation then MS might be better. |
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Feb 22 2006, 09:11 PM
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
It would seem like you could build a magazine-fed or revolving action for a MS rifle... think of how a normal automatic rifle or revolver shotgun (yeah, I realize those went out with the turn of the century, stick with me on this) operates, except replace the standard shell with a MS cassette/preload holding n rounds of ammunition. With the automatic, once the cassette is depleted, the gun would cycle open (using either gas or, since it's teh futar, electronic operation), eject the cassette, and load a new one into the "chamber." In the revolving action, you'd have several "cylinders" loaded with these cassettes, and the gun would rotate to the next one when the current cassette was depleted, or have different ammunition types loaded in some of the cylinders, allowing for operator selection. You save most of the weight involved in a "full-barrel" MS system by having only a single, robust barrel forwards of the cassette itself, and simply moving new cassettes into position in line with it as you continue to fire.
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Feb 22 2006, 09:59 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Actually, O'Dwyer (The founder of Metal Storm) holds patents regarding just this. (the wikipedia stated that, so i went browsing the sites of the us patent office...).
Sure. After all, MS is the ultimate weapon technology for drones. But, like i said before, it is probably better to just ignore this technology in Shadowrun. I don't feel it can be incorporated in the existing SR rules set. Wouldn't be much fun if the runners would die instantly when hit by a metal storm... |
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Feb 22 2006, 11:07 PM
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
After going to their site and watching that 1,000,000 ROF video I was quite impressed.
But I see only limited applications for this kind of system. To high of a rate of fire is a waste and lower rates of fire are better handled by other more standard platforms. But it would have some very logical uses still. It would make a great hold out pistol, smaller then normal and more fire power for its size then normally possible. Great for real small drones with a very limited space for its size could be used for things such as Assassination and such that have need of stealth and small visibility where one shot might not do it. And as a massive mortar platform, to saturate an entire area of incoming troops or pulling up a truck and launching into some bodies compound from a short range away for a suprise attack while people are eating in their tents would be very effective and sudden. Now thats what I call a drive by shooting. There might be a few more even but I would say this system is very, very situational, very specialized indeed in its uses. I think it would be interesting to see if they could make a flechette version of its ammo. I don't know if anyone has seen the videos of the helo's in nam firing large numbers of tubes with row upon row of wads of flechettes stacked in them. They said that was one of the most effective weapons of the war and one of the cheapest, they took a nail and added a small fin. But because it didn't have the big flashy boom boom effect it was hardly even a thought in the news. When they interviewed enemy troops, they said that it sounded like thousands of bees in the air and next thing you know the sky was filled with needles that killed all in sight. They said whole areas that were quiet for nothing larger then a insect was alive in them. With the variable firing rate they could set that thing for, would be a nasty little weapon mounted on anything from UAVs to remote tripods for that anti-personal saturation effect. |
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