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> Money, all comes down to money in the end
Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 04:15 PM
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Im going to extend my fluff section a little and want to talk about money. How much money gets a runner for this and that job.

Parameters:
- shadowrunning should earn you more money than stealing cars
(Eurocar Westwind = 85k. 30% of this is 30k, about 6k for everyone in the team)
- there should be enough money, so that there is enough room for character development (cyberware, bioware) in a reasonable time
- money should be balanced against karma. we don't want to unbalance magicians, adepts and technomancers by providing everybody else with huge amounts of money, that they can not use effectively, so money and karma goes kind of hand in hand. I suggest a karma to money ratio of 1:2500
- personally I think the money rules in the companion arent worth anything

so here is my proposal:
note:
- as always, only general guidelines. daviations -50% + 100% are always possible. Just to give players an impression of what their characters think is appropriate
- all prices are per capita (though Jonsons will always pay per job and thus pick a team of fitting size)
- it is assumed that shadowrunners of the power level that results from the generation rules are needed for the job and that the average street punk would not be able to do the job

Matrixruns:
Rating 4 node: 2,000 Nuyen
Rating 5 node: 5,000 Nuyen
Rating 6 node: 10,000+ Nuyen

Investigations: 300 Nuyen per day
Expliciltly magic investigation: 400 Nuyen per day
Observations: 200 Nuyen per day
Explicitly magic observations: 300 Nuyen per day

Wetwork: 5,000+ Nuyen
Break-In: 2,000 Nuyen
Extraction: 10,000 Nuyen
Transport: 1,000 Nuyen
Combat: 5,000 Nuyen

danger bonus:
slight security (uncybered guards, HTRT arrives in 20 minutes after alarm): 5,000 Nuyen
medium security (cybered guards, drones), HTRT in 10 minutes: 10,000 Nuyen
heavy security (heavily cybered guards, mages, military drones, HTRT in 5 minutes): 20,000 Nuyen
extreme security (everything you can think of): 30,000+ Nuyen
explicitly magical danger: 10,000+ Nuyen

Please discuss and give comments. If possible give reaons why something is to cheap, expensive.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 22 2006, 04:28 PM
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Another thing to consider, which types of runs pay by the runner and which ones are a flat rate.
Bodyguard, Surveillance, etc could reasonably pay an amount per runner. It costs more to hire an extra bodyguard.
Wetwork, datasteal, extraction, transport, etc should pay a flat rate, regardless of how many or how few people are on the team and do the run. There is a discrete goal or set of goals that is being paid for.
Does this mean a bigger team gets screwed? No. A bigger team should be handling tougher missions than a smaller team. Tougher missions that pay better. Roughly proportionately better.
But still, the idea that "get X and I'll pay you each Y" seems weird to me, but I know many groups do things that way. To me, it seems much more reasonable to "pay Z for the delivery of X."
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stevebugge
post Feb 22 2006, 04:29 PM
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Maybe you can build off of this. (It's tuned for SR4's generally lower prices so if you aren't working that way it won't be of any use to you)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11811

In general these look way to high for an average campaign, if you are in to a highpowered one they might work. I rarely payout over 3K per person on a run (unless it's a published run and says differently) I like my characters to have to wrestle with "to loot or not to loot" and questions like that. I also tend to try to keep rare and expensive gear, rare and expensive in my games. Major advancements or upgrades usually require a self directed run.
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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Another thing to consider, which types of runs pay by the runner and which ones are a flat rate.
Bodyguard, Surveillance, etc could reasonably pay an amount per runner. It costs more to hire an extra bodyguard.
Wetwork, datasteal, extraction, transport, etc should pay a flat rate, regardless of how many or how few people are on the team and do the run. There is a discrete goal or set of goals that is being paid for.
Does this mean a bigger team gets screwed? No. A bigger team should be handling tougher missions than a smaller team. Tougher missions that pay better. Roughly proportionately better.
But still, the idea that "get X and I'll pay you each Y" seems weird to me, but I know many groups do things that way. To me, it seems much more reasonable to "pay Z for the delivery of X."

QUOTE (Serbitar)

all prices are per capita (though Jonsons will always pay per job and thus pick a team of fitting size)


Johnsons will always pay per job. But for simplicitly I gave prices per capita wich assume that the number of people on the team is need for the job. So to calculate the price Johnson will pay, just multiply the per capita price times the number of runners. OF course, if a job does need only 4 people and the team has 4, the money should be lowered .
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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (stevebugge @ Feb 22 2006, 11:29 AM)
Maybe you can build off of this. (It's tuned for SR4's generally lower prices so if you aren't working that way it won't be of any use to you)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11811

In general these look way to high for an average campaign, if you are in to a highpowered one they might work.  I rarely payout over 3K per person on a run (unless it's a published run and says differently) I like my characters to have to wrestle with "to loot or not to loot" and questions like that.  I also tend to try to keep rare and expensive gear, rare and expensive in my games.  Major advancements or upgrades usually require a self directed run.


Mine is tuned to SR4 prices, too.
Sorry, but your prices violate my assumption:

- running should pay more than stealing cars (see inital post for calculation)

Runners are high tech criminals, and should be payed as those. At least in my world. It starts to get unrealistic, when runners, that are able to brake into high security areas, are payed less than if they broke into a comparable facility stole the stuff and sold it at 20% to a fixer.
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stevebugge
post Feb 22 2006, 04:43 PM
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That's fine. I think's it fair to say you probably wouldn't enjoy my game and I probably wouldn't care for yours much. Different styles is all.
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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 04:44 PM
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Sure, no problem.
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Kleaner
post Feb 22 2006, 05:16 PM
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I pay out a lot to my players, but then again running is expensive. Characters are constantly ditching cars, gear, guns, handing out bribes, paying off guards and contacts , paying for smuggling, multiple hide outs and lifestyles, buying specific gear for a run...

Regardless most runners are past their prime around age 40... if they want to retire early they'll need around 50-60 years of income saved up. (We'll assume the average life expectancy in 2070 is around 90-100.)

For a high lifestyle your talking over 7 mill! (This is enough if your investments are beating inflation....you'll need a lot more if you plan on keeping it under your mattress...)

If a runner wants to retire in luxury.... figure around 1.2-1.5 mill per year you expect to live.

Better start saving!
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 22 2006, 05:23 PM
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I think your fundamental assumption about stealing cars may be somewhat flawed. However, your numbers come out about right. My assumption would be:

A shadowrunner should be able to cover reasonable expenses, pay for a medium lifestyle (or two lows), and have a little left over by doing one run a month. By this count, the pay should come out between 5k and 15k per month for starting runners. If you run more often, reduce accordingly and less often increase.

The value of obvious and expected loot should fit into this total.

For your numbers. Matrixruns should probably be worth half your number if they're possible via VR or twice your numbers if they require on-site hacking. Runner teams aren't often called in to do VR hacks, so maybe those don't even need mentioning. I'd adjust the "magical" items to be double or triple the mundane versions (just in deference to the small number of magicians out there).

I'd cut your existing danger bonuses in half and add a number of modifiers that you don't include:

The activity must remain undiscovered for a few days: +days x 1000 :nuyen:
The activity must remain undiscovered for a long period of time: +5,000 :nuyen:
No looting: +5,000 :nuyen:
No killing restriction: +50% of security bonus
Item/person must be sat on for a period of time: +20% of security bonus/day
Short timetable (2-5 days): +25% of total (figured last)
Very short timetable (< 48 hours): +50% of total (figured last)

I would also caveat and say that the value you derive is the Johnson's maximum budget for the run. His initial offering price will be less (about 2/3 of the total) though it can be increased through negotiations (say 20% of the reserve for every net hit on a negotiations test). Also, cash up front should be worth more than cash on the back end. Assume a standard of 20% up front, I'd say, and let the negotiator use net hits to add to it instead of increasing the payout on the backend.

Following this, a run I recently put to some players was to rough up someone under moderate security, killing noone. The initial offer was 10k. Doing the math, this system (with my modifications) would give me a max of (wetwork 5,000 + moderate security 5,000 + no killing 2,500 = 12,500 + 4 day timetable 3,125 = 15,625 :nuyen: which is about what I was going to set anyway.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 22 2006, 05:24 PM
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I'm somewhat skeptical that most runners are in it because of long-term financial planning, or because they're good at saving their money.
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stevebugge
post Feb 22 2006, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I'm somewhat skeptical that most runners are in it because of long-term financial planning, or because they're good at saving their money.

As seen in a Seattle Public Schools math exam:

If Johnny Shadowrunner, Age 20, wants to retire at age 45, and Mr. Johnson pays 20k for every job, and Johnny can take 2 jobs per month, How many people does Johnny Shadowrunner have to shoot in the face for money to retire with 7 million NuYen?
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Brahm
post Feb 22 2006, 05:41 PM
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That is a flawed problem, they left out a critical piece of information. The street prices of Joygirls and BTLs. Or is that assumed prior knowledge for SPS students?
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stevebugge
post Feb 22 2006, 05:43 PM
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By 4th grade? They better know!
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Kleaner
post Feb 22 2006, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I'm somewhat skeptical that most runners are in it because of long-term financial planning, or because they're good at saving their money.

Well if your running around knocking over stuffer shacks with "Born to Lose" tattooed on your chest, then yea planning for the future is moot.

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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 22 2006, 12:23 PM)
A shadowrunner should be able to cover reasonable expenses, pay for a medium lifestyle (or two lows), and have a little left over by doing one run a month.  By this count, the pay should come out between 5k and 15k per month for starting runners.  If you run more often, reduce accordingly and less often increase.

Why should runners get paid less per run, because they run more often? Or vice versa. Either a run is worth X ammount of money or not. That doesnt change because you do it more or less often.

Apart from that, thanks for the input. Very helpfull. (Much more so, compared to the rest of the posts . . .)
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 22 2006, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 22 2006, 12:57 PM)
Why should runners get paid less per run, because they run more often?  Or vice versa. Either a run is  worth X ammount of money or not. That doesnt change because you do it more or less often.

Well, you can look at it that way, or you can look at it from the other end. The team running more often is simply offered smaller jobs that pay less than the team that does fewer big jobs. The goal is a metagame one which should guide the GM in his design of the runs to meet his player's needs and to keep character advancement reasonable.

However, if I knew my game was going to be a "job a week" game, I wouldn't feel bad about taking my once-a-month number and reducing them by 25%. The team pulling more jobs still ends up with a lot more cash in the end, it's just not a 1:1 job to cash factor.

The same goes for karma. If you run a lot in a month of game time, then 2-3 karma per event is fine. If it's once-a-month or less, then 5-6 karma is probably better.

Obviously these type of limits are going to be on a per group basis. Some groups might run one run a game month and pull off two a game session. Others might do one every week of game time, but each one takes 2-3 game sessions to pull off. The GM must give the players a feeling of advancement and accomplishment while maintaining a level of growth that he can handle.

Most GMs aren't comfortable or even good at handling things when the power level gets high. In fact, most players aren't good at playing characters at a high level that they didn't have a chance to fully develope along the way.

EDIT: Here's a question, are there any rules specifically for negotiating with the Johnson? If not, I'm tempted to do a writeup on some.
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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 07:01 PM
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Im more the GM that does the metagming in the setting.
The setting should be such that a standard run under standard conditions with a standard frequency returns the desired results. After this is set, the output money doesnt change for exactly the same run, just because they do it more often. In a game where players are kind of playing against the game worl, consistency is quite important.

To the other question: I wont be doing this kind of rules. I think that would lead to far. Even the money thing is not meant as a rule, but as a guideline for fluff text.
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 22 2006, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
After this is set, the output money doesnt change for exactly the same run, just because they do it more often.

I agree. The frequency adjustment is a once-per-campaign type adjustment. When you set up the baseline, you say "these numbers will keep a team that does x number of runs per y time unit afloat". Then the GM can look at his/her setting and tweak the base numbers.

It shouldn't be that the price for an extraction goes down just because you've done ten of them in two months. In fact, you should be earning street cred as extraction professionals and getting more per run (which either means that the Johnson is offering you more of his budget for the job or that you're attracting Johnsons who want bigger jobs done and thus have bigger budgets to start with).

However, if the GM knows that he's going to average a run every two weeks of game time, he may say that the price for all runs is reduced by 25% in order to keep character growth in balance. It'd be a change from the start, not one that occurs during play.

And even with guidelines, there should be the occasional big run or winfall loot that just blows away the cap. However, by having such things rare they are all the more special.
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Serbitar
post Feb 22 2006, 07:36 PM
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ah ok, now i get your point
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Brahm
post Feb 22 2006, 08:08 PM
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There are going to be some lean times and some fat times. Different kinds of jobs are going to pay differently and require different cost layouts, and sometimes the team will run into a streak of bad luck or be visited by the Fc*kup Fairy. Any of these can very quickly upset the laid out plans.

I remember one of the first threads I followed, but didn't post in, was about this GM that didn't hand out cash for runs at all. I'm going to try find it, I really liked the in the family feel it sounded like it gave to the game. Even if you aren't actually in the Mafia. That you were bartering and part of an underground economy. You wanted new gear? If it is fully legal and the price was low enough that it was just a impulse buy you just got it. Say an armored vest or a new lowend commlink.

But if it was expensive like a car or normally an item that is greymarket or blackmarket you likely went out and stole it, did a job for someone to get it in trade, or collected on an outstanding favour someone owed you.

Maybe you wouldn't need to have all runs like this, but even half or most of them would help relying on trying to set down numbers up front. Lifestyles could even be handled this way in a pinch. For example where a runner housesits for a friend of a friend or stays in one of the crappy coffin motels that is a business owned by one of his fixers. Worrying about the end of the month lifestyle change then disappears.


Here is the thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10894
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 22 2006, 08:16 PM
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That's certainly interesting and a good way to play. Even then, however, having a "credit value" for a run could still prove handy to figure out what kind of favor would merit certain rewards.
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Brahm
post Feb 22 2006, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 22 2006, 03:16 PM)
That's certainly interesting and a good way to play.  Even then, however, having a "credit value" for a run could still prove handy to figure out what kind of favor would merit certain rewards.

Not really if you aren't using the equipment price list either. Together the GM and the player explicitly build the team's gear inventory without using the price or the Availibility columns. Those columns are irrelavent. EDIT Outside of the legality of the item, which will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Equipment is the currency.


EDIT

Going back to my alternate ammunition stats you'll notice I mentioned I designed without assigning an explicit Availability or cost. When I GM I already float costs to what money is around, and what I feel is happening in the world at large.

In reality prices and Availibility normally do fluctuate, including for runs that are similar. Instead of just leaving that up to random roll modifications of a set price list I let the game world dictate more where those costs go to try keep the game. Once to that point I figure I might as well go finish it off and eliminate the middle step of translating to and back from nuyen.
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neko128
post Feb 22 2006, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
A shadowrunner should be able to cover reasonable expenses, pay for a medium lifestyle (or two lows), and have a little left over by doing one run a month. By this count, the pay should come out between 5k and 15k per month for starting runners. If you run more often, reduce accordingly and less often increase.

If I'm reading this right, I have to strongly disagree. If someone does two runs per month, he shouldn't get half the money for each; he should get a normal amount of money for each, because he's taking on extra effort, added risk of being caught and wounded, etcetera. The money's for something, after all.
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TinkerGnome
post Feb 22 2006, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 22 2006, 03:16 PM)
That's certainly interesting and a good way to play.  Even then, however, having a "credit value" for a run could still prove handy to figure out what kind of favor would merit certain rewards.

Not really if you aren't using the equipment price list either. Together the GM and the player explicitly build the team's gear inventory without using the price or the Availibility columns. Those columns are irrelavent.

Provided a group of players and a GM that are intimate with the rules and willing to put forth the non-trivial amount of additional work to make that happen, yes. However, that amount of work is not trivial and I have to think that a lot of GMs and players don't have rules knowledge sufficient to understand wht the true value of item x is in gameplay without having seen it used a while.

From a GM's perspective, keeping a group of six runners happy is a monumental task and requires a longterm group commitment beyond what many groups can muster. If you figure that each run nets one big item, as a PC I could well go five runs without seeing anything. I don't like that much.

The system is great if it suits your group. I have to believe that it doesn't suit many if not most groups.

QUOTE (neko128)
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 22 2006, 12:23 PM)
A shadowrunner should be able to cover reasonable expenses, pay for a medium lifestyle (or two lows), and have a little left over by doing one run a month.  By this count, the pay should come out between 5k and 15k per month for starting runners.  If you run more often, reduce accordingly and less often increase.

If I'm reading this right, I have to strongly disagree. If someone does two runs per month, he shouldn't get half the money for each; he should get a normal amount of money for each, because he's taking on extra effort, added risk of being caught and wounded, etcetera. The money's for something, after all.

Well, it's a campaign design number, not a by the character number. If the campaign is set up to allow a run every month, then the price is x. If the campaign is set up to allow two runs a month, then the price is y. The price for a job would be consistant between jobs of the same type within the campaign. The price wouldn't magically lower because you were doing two of them that month.

It's a metagame GM limitation that's designed into the campaign for balance reasons.
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Brahm
post Feb 22 2006, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 22 2006, 04:06 PM)
Provided a group of players and a GM that are intimate with the rules and willing to put forth the non-trivial amount of additional work to make that happen, yes. However, that amount of work is not trivial and I have to think that a lot of GMs and players don't have rules knowledge sufficient to understand wht the true value of item x is in gameplay without having seen it used a while.

If your GM doesn't have a decent grasp on the the rules and what equipment that is coming into the game then the game is already in peril. :( As a GM you don't watch what items come into the campaign and learn ahead of time what the rules are surrounding them? Just relying on the book price list and Avail number is going to eventually land you in a heap of trouble because a lot of stuff has interactions with other things that go deeper than the price alone can represent.

The players don't need to have any extra knowledge either. They just say they'd like to have one of these or those. I suppose a level of general maturity as a person would be helpful, and some gaming experience. But not necessarily even in SR. It isn't that the player can't look at the price list, it is just that the GM doesn't refer to it. The value and availability of the equipment is judged solely by the GM. Which it is anyway, even if the GM is relying on the traditional methods of using lookup tables, dice rolls, and such.

The player sees or dreams up an item that looks like something the PC would want. For expedience and curtosy the player lets the GM know ahead of time roughly what they want so the GM can be prepared at the session. The PC goes to their fixer or does legwork to research the item. The GM gives the player an answer IC of yes, no, or conditional.

That is actually what I already do myself. I write into the character background, let the PC drop info the session before, or email the GM between sessions about my PC's goals. That way he has the ability to try lay out a course that helps people build their characters.

QUOTE
From a GM's perspective, keeping a group of six runners happy is a monumental task and requires a longterm group commitment beyond what many groups can muster.  If you figure that each run nets one big item, as a PC I could well go five runs without seeing anything.  I don't like that much.

The system is great if it suits your group.  I have to believe that it doesn't suit many if not most groups.


You are already going to need to wait a number of runs to drag together the truely big cash for items. How long for just a Force 3 Power foci at a couple thousand net per run? Plus who said you can only do an item for one runner per run? Sometimes you aren't even going to need to run to get the item, just call in past accumlated favors.

You are pulling a smash and grab on a cache of unlicensed weapons? You'll likely get at least a couple of items for team members, or maybe the people that own the cache also deal in other contraband like weapon or combat foci. Items that might seem unrelated on the surface can go together. Swinging down to Tacoma to pickup your hot new set of freshly repainted wheels? "While you are down there could you swing by the Twisted Lolita Cafe and sit down with this fragger that owes a friend of mine. I need you to have a heart to heart with him about how to be a responsible debtor."

If your GM is already writing his some of his own runs this is pretty much the same thing.
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