Modifying SA to FA - Dumpshock Forums

Modifying SA to FA, quick question for the gun gurus

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 23 2006, 05:10 PM Post #1
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	As I understand it (which is not very well) any SA weapon should be easy to modify to be FA, and BF is the trickiest of the 3. Correct? Shouldn't modifying any SA handgun to be a machine pistol capable of FA be a relatively trivial modification? Is it just a game balance thing? Thanks.

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Reaver

Feb 23 2006, 05:16 PM

Post #2

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

As I understand it (which is not very well) any SA weapon should be easy to modify to be FA, and BF is the trickiest of the 3. Correct? Shouldn't modifying any SA handgun to be a machine pistol capable of FA be a relatively trivial modification?
Is it just a game balance thing?
Thanks.

Depends on the design of the weapon, but yes it is possible. Recommended is a completely different story. You may find the slide of the weapon flying into your face when it fails from the rapid fire hammering it wasn't designed to take or some other kind of failure.

Brahm

Feb 23 2006, 07:07 PM

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Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 23 2006, 12:10 PM)

As I understand it (which is not very well) any SA weapon should be easy to modify to be FA, and BF is the trickiest of the 3. Correct? Shouldn't modifying any SA handgun to be a machine pistol capable of FA be a relatively trivial modification?
Is it just a game balance thing?
Thanks.

Sometimes ammo capacity, and usually recoil become issues. To compensate for that you use a larger mag, put a foregrip or a collapsing stock on, and maybe a sling.

Then you call it an SMG, or perhaps a Machine Pistol.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 23 2006, 07:11 PM Post #4
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	the best way to do it is to find a semi-only version of a full-auto/burst weapon, like the bushmaster. but, yeah, converting any semi-auto weapon to FA is pretty easy for anyone with the tools and some basic armorer skills.

Brahm

Feb 23 2006, 07:25 PM

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QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 23 2006, 02:11 PM)

the best way to do it is to find a semi-only version of a full-auto/burst weapon, like the bushmaster. but, yeah, converting any semi-auto weapon to FA is pretty easy for anyone with the tools and some basic armorer skills.

Or someone with a Glock living in a jurisdiction where it is legal for them to own a FA and they have enough brain power and dexterity to mailorder the BF/FA replacement backplate for the slide. If you are capable of ordering it you are capable of installing it.

Or you just buy the Glock 18 itself, or the 18c which has barrel mounted recoil compensation, which is a full auto version of the Glock 17.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 23 2006, 08:36 PM Post #6
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	indeed. that's basically what i'm saying--if you want an FA weapon, buy the SA version of an FA weapon and mod it. the SA version is generally going to be built to the tolerances required for safe FA fire, because it was originally designed for FA in the first place.

Lividicus View Member Profile	Feb 23 2006, 09:19 PM Post #7
Target Group: Members Posts: 99 Joined: 20-February 06 From: Media PA Member No.: 8,288	okay is it just me or did i miss this section in the sr4 books ? sr3 you could do things like this but are there rules for it in the sr4 book?

Guest_MK Ultra_*	Feb 23 2006, 10:45 PM Post #8
Guests	Nop, You´d have to wait for Arsenal (SR3 had it in Canon Companion, too).

Brahm

Feb 23 2006, 11:13 PM

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QUOTE (Lividicus @ Feb 23 2006, 04:19 PM)

okay is it just me or did i miss this section in the sr4 books ? sr3 you could do things like this but are there rules for it in the sr4 book?

mfb and I are talking about Real weapons, which is what I think Moon-Hawk was refering to being able to change. I think Moon-Hawk wanted to know why you couldn't just do this in SR.

The SR3 book Canon Companion had a section for modifying an existing weapon. But it only allowed SA/BF SMGs and machine pistols to be converted to SA/FA weapons. It didn't allow SA-only to be converted into BF or FA. Balance is likely the reasoning, but IMO I think all they needed was to give an extra recoil penalty just like they did for the option of converting from BF to FA.

EDIT

If your GM is ok with the concept there is no real need to wait for Arsenal. Just have an Armorer Extended Test of 10/1 hour to convert most SA weapons to BF or FA. Only Armorer Extended Test 5/10 minutes if you instead manage to find a blackmarket kit. Then give the shooter an extra -1 or -2 die recoil penalty on top of whatever recoil they normally would have for BF/FA.

Lividicus View Member Profile	Feb 23 2006, 11:29 PM Post #10
Target Group: Members Posts: 99 Joined: 20-February 06 From: Media PA Member No.: 8,288	Ok yeah, I knew it was in SR3/cannon companon but wasnt sure if i had missed it in sr4. Brahm those are good rules for upgrading think I will use em! hmmmm hopefully one of these days I will come up with an original idea.......doubtful ........ but hopefully

Raygun

Feb 24 2006, 02:51 AM

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QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 23 2006, 07:11 PM)

the best way to do it is to find a semi-only version of a full-auto/burst weapon, like the bushmaster. but, yeah, converting any semi-auto weapon to FA is pretty easy for anyone with the tools and some basic armorer skills.

It depends very heavily upon the weapon, even for semi-autos.

Glocks and Berretta 92s are apparently relatively easy to modify for a selectable FA mode. There are parts available that are designed to do this. Fabricating them from scratch would obviously take more knowledge and time. 1911s can be made FA only very easily. But not just any gun can be converted as easily as these. I do have rules on my site especially for the FSS-G modification.

Most AR-15s (like those that Bushmaster makes) would require some tooling (at least a milling machine and a drill press and correct size bits for each) and some knowledge of parts fabrication and assembly to convert from SA only to SA/FA. The lower receiver, bolt carrier and selector have to be modified and a few additional parts (auto sear, auto hammer) have to be fabricated. Adding burst fire would certainly increase the difficulty by a substantial margin, requiring more knowledge of engineering and the timing involved (if you were to fabricate the parts yourself, that is).

As a general rule (SR3), I would say that for modifying an SA weapon to SA/FA should require a Firearms B/R test with a TN of 5 with a base time of two hours, the use of a machine shop, and 100 :nuyen: for stock.

Snow_Fox View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 03:40 AM Post #12
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221	But a lot should come down to 'why' do you do it?

Raygun View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 04:01 AM Post #13
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176	I would assume legality and availability would be the main reasons. Depending on how you think firearm laws work in the particular country you're operating in, as well as what kind of contacts your team has in said country, it might be easier/more cost effective to buy the generally more available/legal semi-auto rifles and convert them to full auto than to buy manufactured full-auto rifles off of the black/shadow market. Of course, it may not work that way in your game at all. It's up to the GM.

mfb

Feb 24 2006, 05:01 AM

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QUOTE (Raygun)

Most AR-15s (like those that Bushmaster makes) would require some tooling (at least a milling machine and a drill press and correct size bits for each) and some knowledge of parts fabrication and assembly to convert from SA only to SA/FA.

no kidding? i thought it was just a matter of changing out some parts.

SL James View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 10:45 AM Post #15
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Damn jew-run liberal media strikes again! They even ensnared mfb in their communist anti-gun propaganda.

Raygun

Feb 24 2006, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE (mfb)

no kidding? i thought it was just a matter of changing out some parts.

Well, kind of. There are two ways of going about it, really.

In semi-auto AR-15s, some of the area within the lower receiver that would normally be occupied by the auto sear and auto sear spring (and by that I mean the actual Armalite-engineered parts designed to work properly in an M16/M4) is filled by part of the lower receiver itself, which is a chunk of forged aluminum. When a company makes AR-15 lower receivers (as opposed to M16/M4 lower receivers), they just leave a couple of milling and drilling operations out, really. In the US, that's mandated by the BATFE specifically so that AR-15s can't be easily modified for full auto. So you'd have to mill that extra material out and drill a hole through the receiver for the auto sear pivot pin. But other than that, it is just a matter of changing out parts (the trigger, disconnector, hammer, selector switch and bolt carrier). Here's an article that will give you some visuals and a better idea of what I'm talking about.

That said, there is a device called a drop-in auto sear that can be installed in some semi-auto AR-15s (along with the auto trigger group, selector and bolt carrier) to make them SA/FA capable. However, from what I've read, this is a fairly less-than-reliable, "desperate man's" way to get that kind of functionality. Also, these days lower receivers are usually manufactured to prevent even a DIAS from being installed. So if you must have full auto, you're more than likely going to have to spend time machining. You might as well do it the right way (or maybe that's the really wrong way you bad person you way). The penalty is going to be the same.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 03:21 PM Post #17
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	ahhh. fun.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 03:41 PM Post #18
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Great, thanks! Yes, I was asking about real-life guns. I imagine recoil would be a pain, but in a world of trolls and cyberarms I'd think it'd be more common. Speaking of which, where are all the troll guns? Not just modified handles, but bullets so f***ing big a human just can't handle it? Oh, wait, I guess that's just a shotgun, loaded with slugs, shorten barrel and remove stock. Trolls ignore penalty for firing non-heavy two-handed firearms in one hand. Troll-pistol. Nevermind.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 24 2006, 11:56 PM Post #19
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	One more reason to love CP2020... borg guns.

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 25 2006, 12:54 AM Post #20
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	More like "a reason to love Rifts". Glitterboys.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 25 2006, 01:11 AM Post #21
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	that brings the balance up to -351 reasons to love RIFTS.

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 25 2006, 01:29 AM Post #22
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Pshaw. Any system is good when run by someone that knows it well enough to fix all of it's problems. :) (I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the guy that GMs Rifts in our group.) <<edit>> Make that, any system that isn't White Wolf...

Guest_MK Ultra_*	Feb 25 2006, 02:41 AM Post #23
Guests	What is "Pluesch & Plunder" called in english? I´m talking about the RPG, were you´r playing stuffed animals... Are you talking about any system as in rules-mechanics or any system as in any game? I´d disagree on both. game/world-concepts are just a metter of taste (I actually know some people, who don´t like Paranoia :P ). Mechanics are surely not everything, but many (especially older) systems are just crap ruleswise. Sure, you can try to ignore this, or work around that, but if the rules are really shitty, a good GM will simply use others! IMO Rifts is cool, for the ocasional powertrip, but the rules are in the crappy half of the rpg-pool.

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 25 2006, 03:21 AM Post #24
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Meh, leave it to Dumpshockers to take an offhand comment that was mostly a joke, and not at all intended to be 100% true or all-inclusive, and make it into an argument with a lit fuse. :please: To clarify, I wasn't specifically talking about either. I wasn't speaking in absolutes or constants either. Yes, it's all a matter of opinion. Also, see the part of the post where I said a game would be good after you had fixed all the problems. Note that this is also entirely subjective, because one gamer's perceived "problem" is another gamer's favorite "perfect aspect". When the guy I'm referring to GMs "Rifts", it's actually an amalgamation of several Palladium systems and books all mushed together, with serious modifications made to various parts of the mechanics. Since you've never played in one of those games, you don't actually know specifically what I'm referring to, and thus the best way to take my earlier comment was as a subjective statement that could apply equally, but in wholly different ways, from anyone/everyone's point of view.

Guest_MK Ultra_*	Feb 26 2006, 02:04 AM Post #25
Guests	Ah, sorry, I really wasn´t taking this one too serious, myself (hence my reference to stuffer animals). I just tend to post bullshit and camouflage it as serious argumentation, sorry to annoy You :oops: I can imagin great rifts/paladium champaigns, sadly, I´ve never been part of one, since I almost exclusively gmed in all these years, and half of my regular group wouldn´t play anything but sr (which also had many mechanical problems IMO, though I´m quiet taken with the SR4 mechanics mastly).

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