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> Matrix House Rules, Att + skill for all matrix actions???
kigmatzomat
post Feb 25 2006, 03:35 AM
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QUOTE (Brahm @ Posted on Feb 24 2006, 08:56 PM)

QUOTE (Azralon)

QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

Attribute + Skill limited with successes capped by program rating.

I like that quite a bit, as well as your reasoning behind it.


Really? A sampling of the reasoning:

An excellent reason for not buying Photoshop is because you don't actually have a need for it that they can justify dropping several hundred dollars, and they have Paintshop because it is a lot cheaper. Myself included, I haven't upgraded from PSP 6 because I just don't need the extra stuff.


I'll admit, I haven't used PaintShop in years so I was surprised to find it had layers. It appears the Paintshop 6 is equivalent to at least Photoshop 4. I'll point out that in SR4 logic, Photoshop would be R6 program and Paintshop would be the R3 program with a sizeable gulf in the cost so my example is far from specious. Paint would be a whopping R1 program.

Plus, I'm fairly certain that anything more complicated than resizing an image can be done faster and probably better in Photoshop. The plugins and filters can do some incredible things with just a few keystrokes if you have the knowledge. You can do the same thing in Paintshop, it just takes longer.

Remember this, I'll use it later.

QUOTE

QUOTE

A faster computer can generate more successes per cycle assuming the user knows what they are doing.


This is total red herring toss out that could go either way.


They don't really go either way. A slow computer means lower Rating and less dice, if you roll rating. A slow computer means lower Rating and a lower threshold. The two are not equivalent.

For instance, IRL I am a hydraulic modeler that runs simulations of very large pipe networks. My ability to get the correct results are independent of the computer's speed (Response ~ program Rating for this arguement). It will take me X number of iterations to get the right answer; aka X number of skill checks. However, if a slow computer/software (R3) takes 6 hours to get a result while a fast computer/software (R6) gives a result every 3 hours then I will succeed sooner with the fast computer.

Since SR4 does not have the time required to repeat a test based on the program's rating we have to ensure the mechanics account for the computer's quickness/laggardliness in some fashion.

QUOTE

But all that aside, what it comes down to is the game.  It is also generally a bad idea to limit successes.
....snip.....
Balance that against what you are trying to accomplish. Which is?


Modeling reality in an acceptable fashion; "acceptable" defined as "not so bulky as to interfere with fun while staying in tune with the existing mechanics."

If you are arguing against limiting successes then you are denying what I consider incontrovertible empirical evidence than poor software takes longer to do the same task than good software. Relying on my personal experiences, I know that a good program makes it easier do things. I also know that a fast computer will outperform a slow computer. I know that personal ability (attribute) plus learned knowledge (skill) are key in accomplishing anything, presuming you have the correct tools (software). I know that tools (software) can cause a given task to take more or less time or be impossible.


There are 3 variables to a Matrix task: attribute, skill, program. Every other roll to achieve a task I can think of in SR4 is Attribute + Skill. A few special situations allow you to roll Attribute + Skill + Skill but those are specific cases, not intended to be the norm. There are two examples, that you stated, where the successes on Attribute + Skill is limited by a device/object/spell Rating.

So at this point, Att+Skill (program Rating threshold) is in keeping with the existing rules.

Let's revisit the Paint/Paintshop/Photoshop scenario to compare att+skill (limit program) vs attribute+program (limit skill). HackerB has att:4 skill:4; he's a competent pro but far from legendary.

att+skill (limit program) vs attribute+program (limit skill)
Paint 4+4 (limit 1) avg successes:4 effective successes:1
Paint Shop: 4 +4 (limit 3) avg successes:4 effective successes:3
Photoshop 4+ 4 (limit 6) avg successes:4 effective successes:4


attribute+program (limit skill)
Paint 4+1 (limit 4) avg successes:2.5 effective successes:2.5
Paint Shop 4+3 (limit 4) avg successes:3.5 effective successes:3.5
Photoshop 4+6 (limit 4) avg successes:4.5 effective successes:4

So the arguement for att+skill(cap program) and att+program (cap skill) comes down on how much variance you want between crappy software and good software.
It has been my experience that good software can achieve a task several times faster than bad software (MS paint is "teh suxx0rz" as the kids say) so I like att+skill(cap program). If, in your mind, PSP is only slightly superior than MSPaint you would prefer att+program (cap skill).

Either is an arguable valid model but I think the precedent of att+skill (limit Rating) set by magic and first aid gets the win on a technicality since it reduces the amount of things to learn. Simplifications always trump complications. "Like Magic" is easier to learn than "like magic, but backwards."
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Brahm
post Feb 25 2006, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Feb 24 2006, 10:35 PM)
However, if a slow computer/software (R3) takes 6 hours to get a result while a fast computer/software (R6) gives a result every 3 hours then I will succeed sooner with the fast computer.

However how that gets modeled in the mechanics can indeed be done multiple ways. More dice, putting caps on, etc.

I'm going to repeat what I said in a different thread, just incase you missed it. Which is going to be a lot more productive.

QUOTE
I suggest not trying too hard to equate SR computing to RL. I find general computing in SR is about a 3 or 4 Pull on the Crack Pipe Scale, and in places 5 or 6 Pulls. For example decking via satelite link.

You really are better off trying to find the mechanic and then map the specifics of reality over top of it.


Onto playing the game.

Differentiation from different numbers of hits is what makes fixed TN work. Putting caps on hits reduces the differentiation of multiple hits, especially when the Edge dice come out. This is why putting caps on the number of hits is generally a bad thing.

QUOTE
Simplifications always trump complications.

Another great reason to not use a cap. :P

Also you have to keep a close watch on how you are changing dice pools relative to Technos. Remember I talked about not rolling against others outside of decking? Well that is only true if you include both mundanes and Technos within scope. Otherwise you could just use Logic + Skill + Program for the dice pool, which is used a lot of places when you are using a rated tool with a skill.

Just a small adjustment to the Availability of the 'R' programs and the highend commlinks clears up most of the worst game play issues that exist. The weakling starting Techno, the moderately powerful non-Hacker decker, and deckers with relatively few cash requirements to reach the upper echelon of decking.

After that you just need to wrap you head around what the composition of the dice pools really mean. It isn't a lot different than understanding why one particular Skill uses Attribute X instead of Y for a given task. Remember that sometimes a different Attribute is added to the dice pool for a given Skill, even though the normal Attribute could also be seen as an influence in that situation as well.
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The Horror
post Feb 25 2006, 12:18 PM
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Today I sat down and decided to rewrite the entire technomancer section. Currently it will work perfectly as is with my matrix house rules, but I still felt like it could be made more consistent with the rest of the magic rules. I don't know if I've succeeded, but it does seem ok.

Once again, any and all comments are welcome. If you see anything that seems wrong or unbalanced please point it out.


The Horror


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modification to OP on Matrix House Rules

Changed use of Stealth program when defending from attacks to use of Firewall rating according to the latest errata.


Technomancers

System = Logic
Signal = Resonance/2 round up.
Firewall = Willpower
Response = Intuition


Threading and using Complex Forms

Note:
- For the purposes of these house rules, the definition of threading has changed. Threading is now defined as ‘loading’ or ‘casting’ complex forms.
- All complex forms must now be threaded on the fly.
- Biofeedback filter is now a complex form.

Complex Forms now function similarly to spells. They each cost 3 BP, and can be used at a variable Force. Given that according to the hacking house rules programs are a cap on the number of successes, the Force allocated to a complex form is the cap on the number of successes. Using a complex form incurs stun fading that is resisted with Intuition and Willpower. ‘Overcasting’, or using a complex form at a Force greater than the Resonance attribute, inflicts physical fading.

Once a complex form is threaded, it will remain active at the selected force until the Technomancer chooses to unthread it (ie. Unload it). A Technomancer may have a number of active complex forms equal to their Response rating (Intuition attribute). Additional complex forms beyond the Response rating of a technomancer must be sustained. Sustaining a complex form incurs a –2 dice penalty to all actions.

Unthreading a complex form is a free action. Threading a complex form does not take an action, and is automatically performed as part of another matrix action.


Example of how to use complex forms

Jameson
- Resonance 5, Logic 5, Willpower 4, Intuition 3
- Cybercombat 5, Matrix Perception 4
- Learned complex forms Analyse, Command, Edit, Scan, Armor, Attack, Biofeedback Filter, Defuse, Exploit, Stealth, Track
- Threaded complex forms: Exploit 4, Stealth 6

IC
- Rating 4
- Analyse 4, Armor 2, Stealth 2, Blackhammer 3


note: I have added hot sim dice to attack and defense rolls, not to Fading resistance or to damage soaking.

Jameson attacks the IC. Jameson rolls Logic + Cybercombat (10 dice) using his Attack complex form. He sets the Force to 5 and rolls 12 dice (10 + 2 for hot sim), obtaining 4 successes (which was not capped since the Force of the complex form was 5). The IC rolls Intuition (replaced by its Rating) using its Firewall rating as a cap on the successes. Rolling 4 dice, it scores 2 successes. Overall, Jameson scores 2 net hits. His Attack inflicts 5 damage (Force of Attack complex form) + 2 net successes. The IC attempts to resist by rolling its Willpower (replaced by its Rating) using its Armor program. Rolling 4 dice, the IC rolls 2 successes (matching its cap of 2 on the roll). Overall the IC takes 5 damage. Now Jameson must resist Fading of 2 (Force/2 round down). Rolling 7 dice (Willpower + Intuition), Jameson scores 2 successes resisting the Fading completely.

Jameson is now considered to have a threaded Attack complex form at his disposal, of Force = 5. During the next IP, Jameson will not have to thread the complex form again. His Attack Complex form will remain threaded until he chooses to remove it from his list as a free action.

The IC now attacks Jameson. The IC rolls Rating x 2 dice (8 dice) using its Blackhammer program. Rolling the dice, the IC scores 4 successes, which are capped to 3 due to its program rating. Jameson rolls Intuition to defend, using his Firewall as a cap on the number of successes. Jameson rolls his Intuition (3 dice) + 2 dice for hot sim and scores 1 hit. The IC scores one net success, dealing 5 damage (rating 3 Blackhammer + two net successes).

Jameson must now resist this damage by rolling Willpower (4 dice) and using his Biofeedback Filter complex form. Since Jameson has not previously threaded Biofeedback filter, he must thread this complex form right now. Selecting a Force of 3, Jameson resists the damage by rolling Willpower (4 dice) and capping his successes at 3. He scores 2 successes, and takes 3 physical damage from the black IC. Jameson must now also resist Fading of 1 (F/2 round down) because he threaded a complex form. To resist Fading Jameson would roll 7 dice (Willpower + Intuition), so he just buys his success and takes zero Fading.

Now Jameson has another problem. He currently has 4 complex forms threaded (Exploit 4, Stealth 6, Attack 5, Biofeedback Filter 3). To keep all of these complex forms threaded Jameson will have to incur a –2 sustaining penalty to all further actions. Alternatively, during the next IP Jameson may use a free action to unthread one of the complex forms that are currently threaded. Another alternative in turn would be for Jameson to utilize the services of a registered Sprite and have it sustain the complex form for him.


Summary of Complex Forms
Cost: 3 BP
Fading: F/2
Duration: S

Optional Rule: Technomancers may thread a complex form they have not yet learned, but to do so they put their very lives at risk. The Fading for threading unlearned complex forms is much higher (F/2 + 5).


List of Complex Forms

Analyse
Command
Edit
Encrypt
Scan
Armor
Attack
Biofeedback Filter
Black Hammer
Blackout
Data Bomb
Decrypt
Defuse
ECCM
Exploit
Medic
Sniffer
Spoof
Stealth
Track

Browse and Reality Filter have been removed from all of my posted matrix house rules. Browse was removed because I removed the Data Search matrix action. Reality Filter was removed for no good reason (didn’t remember to type it up).


Compiling
Compiling a Sprite is a complex action. Roll Resonance + Compiling in an opposed test against the selected Rating for the Sprite. Net hits determine the number of services the Sprite owes. The services of a summoned Sprite remain only for a period of 8 hours after being compiled, unless the Sprite is registered to the Technomancer. The fading value suffered by the technomancer is equal to 2x the number of hits (not net hits) scored by the Sprite. If the Sprites Rating is higher than the technomancers Resonance, the fading is physical instead of stun.

Unregistered Sprite Services
A Sprite can be commanded to perform any one task, or to perform a continual use of a specific Complex Form. Eg. A Sprite ordered to destroy an icon will continue to do so until the icon is destroyed, at which point a service will be used up. A Sprite ordered to Track an icon will continue to do so until the icon is traced or until it fails in its task, at which point a service will be used up.


Registering

To Register a Sprite roll an opposed Resonance + Registering test against the Sprites Rating x 2. Additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services owed by the Sprite.

A Technomancer may have a number of registered sprites equal to his Charisma attribute.

Registering a Sprite takes one combat turn. The Sprite-Technomancer link is automatically reestablished the moment a Technomancer reenters the Matrix.


Registered Sprite Services
- Extended Services: a registered Sprite will not automatically decompile after 8 hours, but will remain registered to the technomancer until all services are utilized.
- Loaned Services: a registered Sprite may be ordered to obey another hackers or technomancers commands. It still remains bound to the technomancer that compiled it however.
- Hacking Services: a registered Sprite may be used to sustain a complex form for a period of time equal to the Sprites Rating in Combat Turns, utilizing one service.
- Aid Study: a registered Sprite may add its Rating in dice to the extended complex form learning test.

Sprites may be re-registered. Roll to register the Sprite as normal. Each net hit adds to the number of services the Sprite owes the technomancer.


Decompiling

To decompile a Sprite, roll an opposed Resonance + Decompiling test against the Sprite’s Rating (+ Resonance if registered). Each net hit reduces the number of owed services by one. Fading is 2x the number of hits rolled by the Sprite.
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Churl Beck
post Feb 25 2006, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (The Horror)
So you mean: attribute + program, with the number of hits capped by your skill?

That sounds pretty good. I do like it.

One problem with this is that it destroys any hope of defaulting. Which means that all shadowrunners without Computer Skills are "unaware."
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The Horror
post Feb 26 2006, 06:06 AM
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It also destroys consistency with the rest of the system. That's why I plan to stick to attribute + skill myself.
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kigmatzomat
post Feb 26 2006, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 25 2006, 12:37 AM)
Otherwise you could just use Logic + Skill + Program for the dice pool, which is used a lot of places when you are using a rated tool with a skill.

Just a small adjustment to the Availability of the 'R' programs and the highend commlinks clears up most of the worst game play issues that exist. The weakling starting Techno, the moderately powerful non-Hacker decker, and deckers with relatively few cash requirements to reach the upper echelon of decking.


The only stat+skill+rating rolls I know of are the sensory cyberwares which augment existing ability, a significantly different thing than a tool required to do a job. Examples would be appreciated.

As for the disparity between technomancers, nonhacker-hackers, and deckers:

SR4 hacker (Logic:4 Skill 4 or 5, program rating 4 or 5)
skill + program (no cap): 4/5 + 4/5 = 4-5 hits
attribute+skill (cap rating): 4+4/5 = 4-4.5 hits limited to 4 or 5 hits
attribute+program (cap skill): 4 + 4/5 = 4-4.5 hits limited to 4 or 5 hits
attribute+skill+program: 4 + 4/5 + 4/5 = 6-7 hits

SR4 Technomancer (Logic:5 Skill:3 program rating 3-5)
skill + program (no cap): 3 + 3/5 = 4-5 hits
attribute+skill (cap rating): 5+3 = 4 hits limited to 3 or 4 hits
attribute+program (cap skill): 5 + 3/5 = 4-5 hits limited to 3-5 hits
attribute+skill+program: 5 + 3 + 3/5 = 5.5-6.5 hits

SR4 Smuggler (Logic:4 Skill 3 or 4, program rating 5)
(the only non-hacker archetype I saw with hacking skills & programs)
skill + program (no cap): 3 + 5 = 4 hits
attribute+skill (cap rating): 4+3/4 = 3.5-4 hits limited 5 hits
attribute+program (cap skill): 4 + 5 = 4.5 hits limited to 3-4 hits
attribute+skill+program: 4 + 3/4 + 5 = 6-6.5 hits

IMO the ranking should be Hacker/Techno/Smuggler b/c a hacker can lose his gear while a technomancer can't. The 2 scenarios that fulfill that expectations are the SR4 default (skill + program, no cap) and attribute+skill (cap program).

If you want to post your changes to the availablility we can see how they shake down as well.
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