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> Where'd the V.P. Go?, Chain of command problems?
Gyro the Greek S...
post Feb 25 2006, 05:31 AM
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Quick question-is it explained anywhere exactly what happened to the Vice President after Kyle Haeffner bought it? In SR4 it says that order was restored by General Whats-Her-Face, but wouldn't that be a major constitutional no-no?
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mfb
post Feb 25 2006, 05:49 AM
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the VP is missing. disappeared during the crash.
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 25 2006, 06:03 AM
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AT which point, IIRC, control should have gone to the speaker of the House, not a general. So it was a coup after all. A coup of a coup. Or something....
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Ice Hammer
post Feb 25 2006, 09:10 AM
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The way I interpreted things from reading both System Failure and Shadowrun 4 is that after the attacks, a President Pro-Tempore is named, who is Gene Simone (presumably the Speaker of the House or the Senate Pro Tempore), and Mr. Simone is the one who gives the orders as acting president until a new election is able to be held in 2068, and at that time, General Colloton is elected President.
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 25 2006, 09:51 AM
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that makes more sense. I'll have to re-read it.
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SL James
post Feb 25 2006, 10:03 AM
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Quick answer: Mandyville.

Long answer: *sighs*

Apparently the timeline in the Critical Error chapter is wrong (yay...) and it wasn't Daviar, but Simone who put Colloton in charge of the counterinsurgency (which is what her role ostensibly was) because Daviar fell off the face of the earth (which is probably the greatest magic trick in history).

With regards to SR4, I raised holy hell about that myself before I missed a very critical comma. The sentence makes sense when you read the sentence as "tem, General."

As for Simone... Unless someone felt the need to change the order of succession (which isn't entirely out of the question), the President Pro Tempore is third in line of succession after the VP and Speaker of the House. VP disappeared after an attack in Seattle (I can't wait to read about that in Runner Havens) and one would presume the Speaker also died or disappeared. The Secretary of State was in Europe (4th in line), Treasury Secretary (5th) is unknwon, SecDef is dead (6th, but also may have been kidnapped [And I ascribe a great deal of credit to the author(s) even acknowledging this point] because he and the President are both the National Command Authority), AG (7th) unknown, Agriculture (8th) is incapacitated, and so the leadership of the UCAS government in a time of crisis never seen in almost 300 years happens to fall on the longest-serving member of the Senate majority party (which is what the President Pro Tempore named in the RL 25th Amendment and the Presidential Succession Act is. The "president pro tem" is the senator, usually a rookie backbencher, who is picked to sit in the Senate chamber and oversee daily business in the President's [the Vice President] or PPT's place [because, frankly, they have better things to do]. It is a thankless job, and hence why it is heaped onto the most junior, powerless senators). Whether he (?) won the rescheduled election or not (BTW, that was a neat move. King Rudy couldn't even postpone the NYC mayoral election after 9/11) is unclear and from the tone of SR4... Completely unimportant.

For all intents and purposes, imagine if, two years ago, everyone was wiped out a la the end of Debt of Honor except for Strom Thurmond. He would become the President.

I also find it insulting that a legendary decker like Fastjack doesn't smell bullshit all over this in SR4, but that's just me.
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 25 2006, 11:59 AM
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thanks james, that was pretty in depth. As far as Fastjack goes, I doubt that he would, at the very least, have serious suspiciouns. With his ability to pretty much hack any system, including Z-O, he'd likely have proof as well. more like, I suspect, they didn't think that the core book was the place to dive right in to conspiracy theories. I personally disagree because I think that they make SR what it is, but that's just me.
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Nath
post Feb 25 2006, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)
Apparently the timeline in the Critical Error chapter is wrong (yay...) and it wasn't Daviar, but Simone who put Colloton in charge of the counterinsurgency (which is what her role ostensibly was) because Daviar fell off the face of the earth (which is probably the greatest magic trick in history).

I also think it's an editing mistake. Now, if one wanted to apply the text as it was published, it is not impossible for Daviar to have given Colloton the order in the interval between the abduction of Haeffner and her own disappearence. Which would make Daviar at least indirectly responsible for the death of Haeffner, by putting the wrong people in charge.

QUOTE (SL James)
Whether he (?) won the rescheduled election or not (BTW, that was a neat move. King Rudy couldn't even postpone the NYC mayoral election after 9/11) is unclear and from the tone of SR4... Completely unimportant.

The UCAS election system is entirely based on electronic vote, authentified with SIN. It's a bit like New York only polling place had been in the World Trade Center.
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jervinator
post Feb 25 2006, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
Which would make Daviar at least indirectly responsible for the death of Haeffner, by putting the wrong people in charge.

I dispute that. Unless Daviar put a Great Dragon in charge, there is no way she could ensure that whoever she put in charge had the micromanagement skills to ensure that not only they did a good and proper job but so did their subordinates, and their subordinates, and their subordinates, and...

[ Spoiler ]
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Critias
post Feb 25 2006, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
thanks james, that was pretty in depth.

That's what we keep him around for.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 25 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (jervinator @ Feb 25 2006, 08:46 AM)
QUOTE (Nath)
Which would make Daviar at least indirectly responsible for the death of Haeffner, by putting the wrong people in charge.

I dispute that. Unless Daviar put a Great Dragon in charge, there is no way she could ensure that whoever she put in charge had the micromanagement skills to ensure that not only they did a good and proper job but so did their subordinates, and their subordinates, and their subordinates, and...


It is implied that Colloton ordered the execution. You can't get much more responsible than that.
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jervinator
post Feb 25 2006, 02:59 PM
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No, it isn't

[ Spoiler ]
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Nath
post Feb 25 2006, 04:32 PM
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[ Spoiler ]
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Brahm
post Feb 25 2006, 05:35 PM
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This assumes that NR is the only group/inivdual with asperations of power and capable of treason and murder in pursuit of them. Welcome to SR.
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Calvin Hobbes
post Feb 25 2006, 07:35 PM
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There's no explanation why his rescuers killed him, and it's very possible that some other group was pulling their strings even as New Revolution takes power.

Does anyone know what happened to other American countries?
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hyzmarca
post Feb 25 2006, 08:11 PM
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It is possible but unlikely and just plain bad writing.
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jervinator
post Feb 25 2006, 08:58 PM
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I think we are all entitled to our own interpretation of 'the facts', and I have my own opinions on the matter. Whether they are correct or not, or whether they are more/less right than anybody else's is not worth starting a war, though IRL countries have fought for less.

My take : Many military leaders are traditionalists so General Colloton may be either neutral or sympathetic to NR without actually being a part of NR... or part of a different but similar conspiracy. Or maybe she is just a lucky opportunist.

I mean, this is Shadowrun and we are talking high-level politics. Individually, each are nasty and brutal and convoluted. Together.... :evil:
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Gyro the Greek S...
post Feb 25 2006, 10:35 PM
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Then I imagine it's likely that Daviar went underground to avoid being caught in the NR cross-fire, as she might have been savvy to what was going on.

I would imagine that some of this NR plotting and such might get in the way of the plans of several megacorps, putting said megacorps in the "enemy of my enemy" position...
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SL James
post Feb 26 2006, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (Nath)

QUOTE (SL James)
Whether he (?) won the rescheduled election or not (BTW, that was a neat move. King Rudy couldn't even postpone the NYC mayoral election after 9/11) is unclear and from the tone of SR4... Completely unimportant.

The UCAS election system is entirely based on electronic vote, authentified with SIN. It's a bit like New York only polling place had been in the World Trade Center.

Like I said. States run elections. If I want a paper ballot backup, then what's the problem? It's not like the only thing the hundreds of city and county clerks and secretaries of state do is run elections. Printing ballots isn't exactly rocket science, and they have 36 hours to do so.

Of course, this is also ignoring the gross unconstitutionality of the whole thing. Seriously, do the freelancers need a civics lesson refresher? If they do, my rate is $200/hr for a minimum of 3 hours. Let me put it as clearly as possible: It is beyond the power of the federal government to halt elections.

QUOTE (Nath)
Now, if they had to ask Secretary of Defense Stratta, while Simone, as President Pro-Tem of the Senate, is above in the order of sucession, it implies that Simone is not part of the NR.[/spoiler]

...

I can think of a couple of really good reasons why to kidnap Stratta regardless of his place in line of succession (which I alluded to in my previous post. Just to cut to the chase, it's because Stratta could have ordered the attack on the NAN himself). I hope to God that someone knew enough to put it together.

QUOTE (jervinator)
I think we are all entitled to our own interpretation of 'the facts', and I have my own opinions on the matter. Whether they are correct or not, or whether they are more/less right than anybody else's is not worth starting a war, though IRL countries have fought for less.

Quite true. My hypothesis is different from many or all of the ones I've read here.

QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 25 2006, 07:50 AM)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Feb 25 2006, 06:59 AM)
thanks james, that was pretty in depth.

That's what we keep him around for.

You always said it was for the sex!

*runs off crying*
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Halabis
post Feb 26 2006, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)

Of course, this is also ignoring the gross unconstitutionality of the whole thing. Seriously, do the freelancers need a civics lesson refresher? If they do, my rate is $200/hr for a minimum of 3 hours. Let me put it as clearly as possible: It is beyond the power of the federal government to halt elections.

James, I think yer forgeting that this is the UCAS and not the USA. Im pretty sure the federal government is a lot more powerfull in the UCAS than in the USA. Now, in the CAS i can easly see the states having more power than the federal government.
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SL James
post Feb 27 2006, 09:19 AM
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Not entirely. The UCAS Constitution is virtually identical to the US Constitution (except the UCAS 13th Amendment endorses (corporate) slavery instead of abolishing it like the US one does). That fact alone renders the question of elections a state question.

I place the blame squarely on ignorant statist freelancers.
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stevebugge
post Feb 27 2006, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate)
Then I imagine it's likely that Daviar went underground to avoid being caught in the NR cross-fire, as she might have been savvy to what was going on.

I would imagine that some of this NR plotting and such might get in the way of the plans of several megacorps, putting said megacorps in the "enemy of my enemy" position...

Is there anything that clearly points to Daviar not being in on the NR?
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Reaver
post Feb 27 2006, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate @ Feb 25 2006, 02:35 PM)
Then I imagine it's likely that Daviar went underground to avoid being caught in the NR cross-fire, as she might have been savvy to what was going on.

I would imagine that some of this NR plotting and such might get in the way of the plans of several megacorps, putting said megacorps in the "enemy of my enemy" position...

Is there anything that clearly points to Daviar not being in on the NR?

Not that I've seen, and I've looked. I'm running the attempted assassination plotline for my group and I'm having to make it up for the story I'll write once the adventure is done.
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Brahm
post Feb 27 2006, 06:00 PM
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That would seem an odd bunch for the head of the Draco Foundation to throw in with.
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hyzmarca
post Feb 27 2006, 06:17 PM
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The fact that she isn't the President points to it. It would have been far too easy for her to take power by arranging for a group of Shadowrunners flashing her Dark Brown Nipples at Ryan "Quicksilver" Mercury and telling him to off Haeffner. If she was in on it there would have been no need for a coup.

More importantly, if she is in on it then Dunkie is in on it from beyond the grave, yet such a consolodation of power doesn't appear to have been part of his long term goals.
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