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I guess I'm a munch?, Trying to make a missions character

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Brahm

Mar 1 2006, 09:03 PM

Post #51

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QUOTE (Dissonance @ Mar 1 2006, 03:46 PM)

I guess I'm weird in the fact that I'd like to have more spells. I could see how adepts could really benefit from multi-initiation, but as a mage or a shaman, I'd likely put off initiation once I get the one or two metamagic techniques I wanted.

Generally, Centering and Masking. I did have fun with the one guy who knew Tattooing, though.

The trade-off won't likely be as forced in SR4 because everything comes out of the one BP pool. SR3 character generation was kind of fragmented that way with different little pools of resources here and there. Even paying cash you were limited to 50 Spell Points total for spells, binding foci, initiation, and ally spirits (I could be wrong about that last one, that is a bit fuzzy in my memory). In SR4 you don't have as many of the same hard barriers to allocating during character generation. EDIT Although you do have limits on individual type of things such as the limit of double your Spellcasting rating for the number of Spells you can buy, and the limit of Magic attribute number of foci bound.

Another thing to remember is that Initiating remains fairly cheap in SR4, but it is separate from raising Magic. Together they are a lot more expensive than in SR3, although arguably each total point raised in Magic means more.

It is hard to properly assess Initiating far out ahead of Magic as we only have a small sample of the metamagic, but I suspect that Initiating out a couple of Grades ahead will be fairly common for Magicians. Right now it looks like Adepts will only Initiate immediately before raising their Magic because the current metamagic list is far less useful for them.

Azralon View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 09:07 PM Post #52
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	My mage started with Magic 4 (bought to 5, then got some implants). I bought my Spellcasting up to a 6 in chargen because A) that's his primary role in the group, and B) starting with 12 spells gives the character a welcome flexibility. He's had about 34 karma earned so far. The first thing I did with my karma was buy specializations in every ungrouped skill that was central to the character. It was an efficient buy and it added the appropriate flavor based off his background and personality. The very next thing I did was buy up my Magic to 5. I thought about initiating before upping my Magic, but a number of Detection spells seem to work better after 5 hits and I didn't much care to take Physical drain from them. Then there's the fact that spells cast at Force 5 basically have identical drain as their Force 4 counterparts. Right now I'm debating taking my first initiation or upping my Body and/or Edge. The Body point would give me another soak/recover die, another Physical damage box, and let me wear another 2 points of armor before getting encumbered. Another point of Edge is comfortable in a self-explanatory way. Snagging my first metamagic is tempting, too (pretty much anything except Quickening is good to pick up early on). In any case, I'll probably pick up a second Initiate grade before moving my Magic up to 6. I have no immediate need to throw anything at Force 12, and right now a Force 5 is about as good as a Force 6. Two useful metamagic abilities, though, would be nice. Cheaper, too. Ahh, happy decisions.

Dissonance View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 09:22 PM Post #53
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	Physical Mask FTW. Sure, you might risk your immortal soul for doing it, but what better cover than pretending to be an ork male between the ages of 16-24 during your next run? ASIDE: I really don't like the fact you can magically heal physical drain now. That's just.. it really rubs me the wrong way.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 10:42 PM Post #54
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	What was your cyberware? I'm thinking of having my nihilistic fairy godfather of a Chinese village be a pure mage; what would be a good thing for him to have if I wanted burnout? And is burnout worth it once they bring spell anchors in that don't act as astral beacons when they're not activated?

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 2 2006, 12:45 AM Post #55
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I've houseruled around the whole healing physical drain thing to say it couldn't be done magically. Otherwise things get nonsensical.

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 01:05 AM

Post #56

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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Mar 1 2006, 07:45 PM)

I've houseruled around the whole healing physical drain thing to say it couldn't be done magically. Otherwise things get nonsensical.

Yes and no. Casting drain during action still is the same threat. Just like any other character if you can make it to a safe place with decent conditions a mage and a FirstAider you mostly get back on your feet. In fact FirstAid has more of an impact than Heal because FirstAid fixes Stun, can easily be rolling more dice, and doesn't have a chance of causing damage to the medic.

I like it because it is harder to end up with a player as a spectator for weeks of game time because they took damage. Getting back in the game may not float your realism boat, but in a fantasy world Realism is dubious and can bite my trouser cobra if it starts screwing with fun at the gaming table. Sitting around with nothing particular to do while other people play usually isn't a lot of fun.

Dissonance View Member Profile	Mar 2 2006, 01:15 AM Post #57
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	You make a strong point, Brahm. I forget that heal isn't an instant spell. I suppose it'll be more of a problem when you get expendable anchored healing potions.

Cain

Mar 2 2006, 07:07 AM

Post #58

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QUOTE

So when it comes time to spend karma to bring their Edge from 3 back up to 5 they won't notice that their teammate was able raise their Magic from 5 to 6 and have nearly enough left over to Initiate? If he doesn't notice it with one other PC how about when he looks around the table and sees the other PCs doing similar things?

Maybe he'll be stupid enough that it will take him twice. Or maybe he'll first have to play without those 2 points of Edge for a bit for it to sink in. But only the daftest won't notice, and in the end it doesn't matter if he notices or not. Eventually the PC is going to end up dead because Edge isn't forever, and a HoG only delays death.

And in the meanwhile, I have to deal with a moron who hasn't learned his lesson. Or one who keeps his Edge low enough that replacing it doesn't cost him so much. Killing off the character for blatant stupidity is a much more effective object lesson than hoping he notices over the long haul.

The old HOG rule was much scarier than the "escape certain death" clause. Losing *all* your Karma Pool, and only being able to pull it off once, kept it in line. I've had players refuse to use HOG, preferring to have their characters go out in a blaze of glory than try to continue with a zero karma pool-- and this caused an amazingly fun storyline to emerge, as the rest of the team set out to have revenge on the guys who murdered their chum. I cannot imagine like that happening under the Edge rules.

Glyph View Member Profile	Mar 2 2006, 07:57 AM Post #59
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449	If constantly having to use up Karma to replace a damaged Attribute, while watching everyone else get better, isn't enough... then remember, the book says it's not a free ride. A character will escape death, but can still be hospitalized, captured, etc.

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 02:07 AM)

And in the meanwhile, I have to deal with a moron who hasn't learned his lesson. Or one who keeps his Edge low enough that replacing it doesn't cost him so much. Killing off the character for blatant stupidity is a much more effective object lesson than hoping he notices over the long haul.

If he is that bad and he keeps his Edge low? It isn't going to take long. Besides, just because he survives certain death doesn't mean his character doesn't end up captured and jailed for 25 to life wishing he was dead. It just means not dead....at that moment. Yes, sometimes there are things that are worse death. If you as the GM can't imagine them then maybe you just aren't mentally twisted enough to be a GM? :vegm:

QUOTE

The old HOG rule was much scarier than the "escape certain death" clause. Losing *all* your Karma Pool, and only being able to pull it off once, kept it in line. I've had players refuse to use HOG, preferring to have their characters go out in a blaze of glory than try to continue with a zero karma pool-- and this caused an amazingly fun storyline to emerge, as the rest of the team set out to have revenge on the guys who murdered their chum. I cannot imagine like that happening under the Edge rules.

That is the symptom of a bad thing. You have a hard time imagining it because the overproportioned dependency on the Karma Pool isn't there anymore. Ya, if I had a 20+ die Karma Pool that was effectively the core of the player because Karma Pool dominated the game so much that'd be a tough security blanket to let go of.

It certainly doesn't preclude a player deciding their character is going out in a blaze of glory rather than cow down. It also doesn't preclude they get in too deep, burn through all their Edge, and end up dead anyway.

Cain

Mar 2 2006, 06:55 PM

Post #61

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QUOTE

If he is that bad and he keeps his Edge low? It isn't going to take long.

Since most of the archetypes in the book are Edge 1-3, he won't be that low. And in the meanwhile, I have a disruptive influence in my games, and I can't give him a legal object lesson. I've tried all kinds of twisted things to characters, and I can tell you that the simple threat of PC death works better than Bubba the Love Troll with a crate of sandpaper Trojans.

QUOTE

You have a hard time imagining it because the overproportioned dependency on the Karma Pool isn't there anymore. Ya, if I had a 20+ die Karma Pool that was effectively the core of the player because Karma Pool dominated the game so much that'd be a tough security blanket to let go of.

It certainly doesn't preclude a player deciding their character is going out in a blaze of glory rather than cow down. It also doesn't preclude they get in too deep, burn through all their Edge, and end up dead anyway.

I've been playing since 1989, and I've never seen a character that was run all the way through (e.g., not created and advanced with Karma pre-game) that had a double-digit karma pool. The players who refused to let their characters use HoG had less than five karma pool, and one only had three. I can't imagine people using the escape certain death clause in nearly the same way, since it's not as severe or as dramatic.

For example, one time when a player invoked HoG was when he was essentially going to sacrifice himself, staying behind to try and disarm a nuclear device while his teammates escaped. It seems much less dramatic to have a player say: "Eh, a nuke? What the hell, I've got an Edge of 2."

Azralon

Mar 2 2006, 07:19 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 02:55 PM)

It seems much less dramatic to have a player say: "Eh, a nuke? What the hell, I've got an Edge of 2."

At that point, I'd gently remind the player that the rules answer to the gamemaster, not the other way around. If you take a nuke to the face, you die. Obvious metagame munchkinisms warrant penalization.

Or if you want to stick within the rules so as to avoid an argument altogether, inform the player that burning that point of Edge during a nuclear blast manifests a freak tear in the space-time continuum and the character is launched into the year 3000 with total amnesia. And no, you're not going to run that campaign, so he'd better make up a new guy for 2070.

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 07:28 PM

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 01:55 PM)

QUOTE

If he is that bad and he keeps his Edge low? It isn't going to take long.

Since most of the archetypes in the book are Edge 1-3, he won't be that low. And in the meanwhile, I have a disruptive influence in my games, and I can't give him a legal object lesson. I've tried all kinds of twisted things to characters, and I can tell you that the simple threat of PC death works better than Bubba the Love Troll with a crate of sandpaper Trojans.

If they aren't dieing, they are being captured and incarcerated perpetually, they aren't having things happen to them that are blatantly setting them back immensely, and the GM isn't pulling punches then guess what? Your disruptive influence isn't really all that disruptive. He certainly isn't playing with a blatant disregard with his characters well being because permanent Edge burns aren't going to cover that up.

I used Hand of God twice in SR3, and neither of those characters were played past that session. The one died shortly after anyway, the situation was just that bad. The other, with good behavior, should have a chance of early parole somewhere around the time the mana drops off and the 7th World starts. Or he's dead too. I don't recall the exact details of his sentencing.

QUOTE

You have a hard time imagining it because the overproportioned dependency on the Karma Pool isn't there anymore. Ya, if I had a 20+ die Karma Pool that was effectively the core of the player because Karma Pool dominated the game so much that'd be a tough security blanket to let go of.

QUOTE

It certainly doesn't preclude a player deciding their character is going out in a blaze of glory rather than cow down. It also doesn't preclude they get in too deep, burn through all their Edge, and end up dead anyway.

I've been playing since 1989, and I've never seen a character that was run all the way through (e.g., not created and advanced with Karma pre-game) that had a double-digit karma pool. The players who refused to let their characters use HoG had less than five karma pool, and one only had three. I can't imagine people using the escape certain death clause in nearly the same way, since it's not as severe or as dramatic.

Then I see you as having a somewhat limited imagination. Hey, how about you go see Thelma & Louise to suppliment your imagination why a character would die rather than live. :P

QUOTE

For example, one time when a player invoked HoG was when he was essentially going to sacrifice himself, staying behind to try and disarm a nuclear device while his teammates escaped. It seems much less dramatic to have a player say: "Eh, a nuke? What the hell, I've got an Edge of 2."

That strikes me as a rather cavalier metagaming use of HoG in either system. If the character doesn't have at least a hairpin and a wad of chewing gum with enough time to to MacGyver their way through defusing the bomb (as in being normally able to roll a Skill test) then with me GMing I doubt they would end up with a playable character.

But no, HoG doesn't mean the exact same thing in SR4. In so small part because "Hand of God" doesn't even exist in SR4. If you don't adjust your GMing to compensate for that then the results aren't going to be that great because you are GMing a different set of rules than the ones being played! Given that death is typically a much shorter trip away in SR4, I view it as a very good thing that a once in a PC's lifetime rule isn't in there.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 2 2006, 09:42 PM Post #64
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	If a player insists on surviving ground zero for a nuke, I'm fine with that. "Looking around, you aren't sure where you are. Based on watching a lot of trid, your guess is you're on the astral plane." "But I'm mundane!" "You aren't sure where your body is. You think it might have been destroyed in that really bright flash a moment ago."

Cain

Mar 2 2006, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE

At that point, I'd gently remind the player that the rules answer to the gamemaster, not the other way around. If you take a nuke to the face, you die. Obvious metagame munchkinisms warrant penalization.

Or if you want to stick within the rules so as to avoid an argument altogether, inform the player that burning that point of Edge during a nuclear blast manifests a freak tear in the space-time continuum and the character is launched into the year 3000 with total amnesia. And no, you're not going to run that campaign, so he'd better make up a new guy for 2070.

I also do a lot of SR Missions, where you're not allowed to monkey with the RAW. If someone finds an abusive loophole in the rules, you *have* to allow it in Missions, since all the fixes are house rules.

QUOTE

If they aren't dieing, they are being captured and incarcerated perpetually, they aren't having things happen to them that are blatantly setting them back immensely, and the GM isn't pulling punches then guess what? Your disruptive influence isn't really all that disruptive. He certainly isn't playing with a blatant disregard with his characters well being because permanent Edge burns aren't going to cover that up.

You're pushing the line, here. I've seen players who have had all of that happen to them, and they didn't stop. A single PC death, and they stopped. Hell, just the threat of PC death is usually enough. Once that threat is removed, however, I've seen good players start getting stupid. If you've GM'ed a lot, you'd know that subtle hints and threats are much better at keeping games flowing than flagrantly abusing your GM abilities to throw wild penalties at problem players.

QUOTE

Then I see you as having a somewhat limited imagination.

And *that* was over the line. I haven't been insulting your obvious lack of GM experience, so you can quit insulting twenty five-plus years of GM experience. I can't imagine it, because it's not going to happen in SR4. The rule clearly says that they get to "survive to fight another day". As a Missions GM, I am not allowed to give a PC a well-deserved lifetime incarceration once they've invoked the "Escape Certain Death" rule, because they have to be able to fight later on. In my home games, I can change the rule; but in Missions, it's the RAW or nothing. Once the rule is invoked, there is nothing a GM can do without invoking GM fiat, and inviting charges of favoritism.

QUOTE

That strikes me as a rather cavalier metagaming use of HoG in either system. If the character doesn't have at least a hairpin and a wad of chewing gum with enough time to to MacGyver their way through defusing the bomb (as in being normally able to roll a Skill test) then with me GMing I doubt they would end up with a playable character.

He did have both skills and tools, although he was at a serious penalty. And I'm glad you weren't GMing, if you're just arbitrarily deciding who gets to have a playable character or not. I believe in fair play. It was a wonderfully tense scene, that left everyone sweating and shaking and laughing in the end. None of that would have happened if I did what you're saying: screw over the player because he found something clever to do.

QUOTE

But no, HoG doesn't mean the exact same thing in SR4. In so small part because "Hand of God" doesn't even exist in SR4.

Wrong. Page 277. Besides which, I'm not referring to the HoG rule in SR4; I'm referring to the "Escape Certain Death" clause under the Edge section.

QUOTE

If you don't adjust your GMing to compensate for that then the results aren't going to be that great because you are GMing a different set of rules than the ones being played! Given that death is typically a much shorter trip away in SR4, I view it as a very good thing that a once in a PC's lifetime rule isn't in there.

You can adjust your GM style all you like; that does nothing for a poorly written, broken rule that allows infinite lives in the hands of a munchkin. And so far, I haven't seen anything that shows that a munched-out character is any closer to death than previously-- and let's face it, we're only discussing munched out characters in the hands of problem players. You have to throw something huge at them to get their attention; and the threat of death is as big as it gets.

Azralon

Mar 2 2006, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE (Cain)

You can adjust your GM style all you like; that does nothing for a poorly written, broken rule that allows infinite lives in the hands of a munchkin. And so far, I haven't seen anything that shows that a munched-out character is any closer to death than previously-- and let's face it, we're only discussing munched out characters in the hands of problem players. You have to throw something huge at them to get their attention; and the threat of death is as big as it gets.

No, there's bigger, and it directly addresses the core issue of a problem player:

"I'm not running games for you anymore."

Cain

Mar 2 2006, 10:13 PM

Post #67

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QUOTE (Azralon)

QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 05:53 PM)

You can adjust your GM style all you like; that does nothing for a poorly written, broken rule that allows infinite lives in the hands of a munchkin. And so far, I haven't seen anything that shows that a munched-out character is any closer to death than previously-- and let's face it, we're only discussing munched out characters in the hands of problem players. You have to throw something huge at them to get their attention; and the threat of death is as big as it gets.

No, there's bigger, and it directly addresses the core issue of a problem player:

"I'm not running games for you anymore."

Great for home games. What do you do for Missions?

Azralon View Member Profile	Mar 2 2006, 10:33 PM Post #68
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	I don't. :)

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 10:56 PM

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 2 2006, 04:53 PM)

QUOTE

At that point, I'd gently remind the player that the rules answer to the gamemaster, not the other way around. If you take a nuke to the face, you die. Obvious metagame munchkinisms warrant penalization.

Or if you want to stick within the rules so as to avoid an argument altogether, inform the player that burning that point of Edge during a nuclear blast manifests a freak tear in the space-time continuum and the character is launched into the year 3000 with total amnesia. And no, you're not going to run that campaign, so he'd better make up a new guy for 2070.

I also do a lot of SR Missions, where you're not allowed to monkey with the RAW. If someone finds an abusive loophole in the rules, you *have* to allow it in Missions, since all the fixes are house rules.

Missions is another excellent place to not have a 1 use limit. You show up with your character at the table of a problem GM and your character is even more screwed. :(

QUOTE

If they aren't dieing, they are being captured and incarcerated perpetually, they aren't having things happen to them that are blatantly setting them back immensely, and the GM isn't pulling punches then guess what? Your disruptive influence isn't really all that disruptive. He certainly isn't playing with a blatant disregard with his characters well being because permanent Edge burns aren't going to cover that up.

You're pushing the line, here. I've seen players who have had all of that happen to them, and they didn't stop. A single PC death, and they stopped. Hell, just the threat of PC death is usually enough. Once that threat is removed, however, I've seen good players start getting stupid. If you've GM'ed a lot, you'd know that subtle hints and threats are much better at keeping games flowing than flagrantly abusing your GM abilities to throw wild penalties at problem players.

If I'd GM'ed a lot??? You aren't just pushing the line, you stepped right over. :(

As for character dead or character in jail forever because they used a point of Edge to have their execution stayed. Character is gone out of play, player doesn't have him anymore, the character is effectively dead to the player. If the player is too stunned to realize that the character is effectively dead to him then I suggest you get yourself a different player.

QUOTE

Then I see you as having a somewhat limited imagination.

And *that* was over the line. I haven't been insulting your obvious lack of GM experience, so you can quit insulting twenty five-plus years of GM experience. I can't imagine it, because it's not going to happen in SR4. The rule clearly says that they get to "survive to fight another day". As a Missions GM, I am not allowed to give a PC a well-deserved lifetime incarceration once they've invoked the "Escape Certain Death" rule, because they have to be able to fight later on. In my home games, I can change the rule; but in Missions, it's the RAW or nothing. Once the rule is invoked, there is nothing a GM can do without invoking GM fiat, and inviting charges of favoritism.

Sure, they get to live to fight another day.....once someone mananges to break them out of high security prision. Hey, high adventure!

I think though we see here the core of the problem. Missions. Welcome to large scale public campaigns and the social stunted munchkin pricks that gravitate towards them because they can't find a private campaign that will put up with them.

QUOTE

That strikes me as a rather cavalier metagaming use of HoG in either system. If the character doesn't have at least a hairpin and a wad of chewing gum with enough time to to MacGyver their way through defusing the bomb (as in being normally able to roll a Skill test) then with me GMing I doubt they would end up with a playable character.

He did have both skills and tools, although he was at a serious penalty. And I'm glad you weren't GMing, if you're just arbitrarily deciding who gets to have a playable character or not. I believe in fair play. It was a wonderfully tense scene, that left everyone sweating and shaking and laughing in the end. None of that would have happened if I did what you're saying: screw over the player because he found something clever to do.

Um, if he had the tools, skill, and time then he didn't to "escape certain death" in SR4. He would still burn a point of karma to buy a critical success on the Test which is something different.

So don't scold me and my GMing because you didn't describe the situation properly.

QUOTE

But no, HoG doesn't mean the exact same thing in SR4. In so small part because "Hand of God" doesn't even exist in SR4.

Wrong. Page 277. Besides which, I'm not referring to the HoG rule in SR4; I'm referring to the "Escape Certain Death" clause under the Edge section.

And it says "Hand of God" where? That's right, it doesn't.

QUOTE

If you don't adjust your GMing to compensate for that then the results aren't going to be that great because you are GMing a different set of rules than the ones being played! Given that death is typically a much shorter trip away in SR4, I view it as a very good thing that a once in a PC's lifetime rule isn't in there.

You can adjust your GM style all you like; that does nothing for a poorly written, broken rule that allows infinite lives in the hands of a munchkin. And so far, I haven't seen anything that shows that a munched-out character is any closer to death than previously-- and let's face it, we're only discussing munched out characters in the hands of problem players. You have to throw something huge at them to get their attention; and the threat of death is as big as it gets.

That differs from SR3 in what way? That differs from any munched out character in any RPG in which way? You haven't seen anything that shows that a munched-out character is colser to death because you missed the part about running out of Edge.

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 11:04 PM

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QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 2 2006, 05:33 PM)

I don't. :)

I tried a large scale public campaign. Living Greyhawk to be precise. Oi vay! Talk about a pack of backstabbing politics, innane S&M style GMs, and socially stunted players. Perhaps the percentages of these weren't a lot different than the general gaming population, and there were some great people in there too. Unfortunately I didn't like playing the hen digging through the cowpie for the kernels of goodness. :(

Moon-Hawk

Mar 2 2006, 11:04 PM

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QUOTE (Brahm)

And it says "Hand of God" where? That's right, it doesn't.

Um, page 277. Second column. Halfway down. In big bold letters.
The point is SR3 "HoG" is comparable to SR4 "escape certain death", while SR4 "HoG" is does not have a corresponding rule in SR3, beyond regular old GM whim saving an important NPC. So SR3 HoG is not the same as SR4 HoG, and this can cause confusion. SR3 HoG is comparable to SR4 escape certain death, but SR4 does have a rule called "Hand of God".

the_dunner

Mar 2 2006, 11:07 PM

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QUOTE

I also do a lot of SR Missions, where you're not allowed to monkey with the RAW. If someone finds an abusive loophole in the rules, you *have* to allow it in Missions, since all the fixes are house rules.

Strictly speaking, that's not quite true. I'm saying this as the guy that runs the Shadowrun Missions campaign. There's one very important rule that always needs to be considered first.

QUOTE (SR4 p. 54)

When the rules get in the way of the story, ignore the rules and tell the story.

If there's a rules flaw that somebody's exploiting to make your game suck, don't let him exploit it. That's the Alpha and the Omega. If the player takes up issue with your GMing, he's welcome to e-mail me at missions@srrpg.com or to PM me here about it later.

Brahm

Mar 2 2006, 11:08 PM

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Mar 2 2006, 06:04 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 2 2006, 05:56 PM)

And it says "Hand of God" where? That's right, it doesn't.

Um, page 277. Second column. Halfway down. In big bold letters.
The point is SR3 "HoG" is comparable to SR4 "escape certain death", while SR4 "HoG" is does not have a corresponding rule in SR3, beyond regular old GM whim saving an important NPC. So SR3 HoG is not the same as SR4 HoG, and this can cause confusion. SR3 HoG is comparable to SR4 escape certain death, but SR4 does have a rule called "Hand of God".

Oops, I stand corrected. I missed that one. But that is NPC only.

EDIT And burns all Edge, so it is somewhat closer to it's SR3 namesake.

Zolhex View Member Profile	Mar 3 2006, 04:22 AM Post #74
Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798	HEHE hey Brahm move to central Florida. we have fairly stable players of that play Missions at the largest con in Florida and tend to have good if not great gaming sessions. and hey look at it this way ya got till February 16th - 18th, 2007 to get here lol. Now if only we can get Fanpro to show some support and show up to the con next year heck I'll offer my services to help at the booth if that will get them to show up.

BishopMcQ View Member Profile	Mar 3 2006, 04:47 AM Post #75
The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910	If a player has his character sodomized, beaten, his toys taken away and then is left in a perpetual BTL loop...that may very well be what he deserved. But at least he survived certain death and can run some day in the future, presuming he doesn't die from BTL overdosage. IMO--Just keep burning your Edge permanently, you will either not advance or die to some punk with a Predator when you have run out entirely.

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