 Initiative |
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 Mar 2 2006, 02:27 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 2-March 06 Member No.: 8,328  |
This is my first posting here so hello everyone. :D
I was hoping that I could get some help in getting my GM to abandon the second edition way he does initiative and do it the way it is done in third edition which is the edition we play. I play a mage and sometimes I do not have the spell increased reflexes going and we end up in combat I usually end up going on a 7 if I am real lucky a 9. Since he does initiative the old way everyone else including the bad guys gets to go three or four times before I can even make a move. Which often leaves me in deep trouble. Like one bad guy getting to take four actions which were firing burst shots at me and hitting me each time by the time it was my turn to go all I could do was crawl some place and hide I was one block from dead. I have only been playing third edition about four months now from a break of close to six years. I only played second for a few months way back when. It seems to me the rules were changed for a reason. He says he feels it makes more sense that cyberware and all that gives you the chance to go first and more often and thems the breaks that mages had the same problem in second. That maybe but I find it to be a serious handicap. In the above situation if we had done initiative like the rules say then I could have at leasted cast physical barrier on myself to give myself a chance against the guys next three actions when I did not get to do anything. So can any long time players give me any help on why the rules were changed to help convince him? |
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Mar 2 2006, 02:57 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
It was changed because it really sucked for mages unless they walked around all the time hopped up on Improved Initiative, and even then they mostly just waited for at least a couple of initiatives and the fight was over without the mage or the mooks you were fighting getting to do much of anything. What to do, what to do? My suggestion is that you first use a large dildo to beat him unconcious. No man can retain their dignity when beaten unconcious with a dildo. Then handcuff him, drag him to a bus station and wait for him to wake up. Once concious again give him swirlies in the public toilet until he sees the light. "But I don't like violence?" Option Number Two Stop playing in his game. Perhaps GM your own game. |
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Mar 2 2006, 03:05 PM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Well, the old system was "be wired or be dead", so that's pretty much the reason for the change. If nothing else, you might consider getting a weak sustaining focus and throwing improved reflexes +3 in it most of the time. Could save your bacon. If all else flails, you might try convincing him to go to a hybrid system. Divide the turn up into .5 second increments and let everyone act according to their number of actions on a chart like this:
Slow characters aren't as well off as they should be in SR3, but they also aren't screwed as much as they were in SR2. |
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Mar 2 2006, 04:10 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 2-March 06 Member No.: 8,328 |
Right now option 1 is looking good 8) to bad he is also a good friend. And his wife might get mad at me on the other hand she might help....I will have to talk to her. ;) Other than this I really enjoy his game he does a good story. If we can't solve this I just might retire my mage and play something wired. He is thinking of going to fourth edition I have not picked up the book yet has the rules changed for initiative in fourth? |
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Mar 2 2006, 04:14 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 2-March 06 Member No.: 8,328 |
I had a foci until I was captured and lost all my equipment. Right now we are on the run from at least one major corpration and we think either UCAS or CAS military and we have a deranged blood shaman from Atzlan after one of the team we have not had time to stop to replace lost items that cost nyuen like Foci. If we make it to our base in Denver safely we will have time but we are not there yet. :( If he won't change his mind I will show him your table thanks. |
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Mar 2 2006, 04:31 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Yes the 4th edition initiative rules are substantially different. You have a derived initiative score based on your Reaction and Intuition Attributes (If you haven't seen the SR4 book yet Intelligence was split in to two component attributes Intuition and Logic, and Quickness split in to Reaction and Agility). To get your initiative score you roll dice equal to your initiative attribute, count the successes and add to your Initiative attribute. Compare all the scores and the highest goes first. Then if you have cyber or magic or drugs that give you extra Initiative Passes, those characters take another action after the first pass (in the same order) until all initiative passes are exhausted. It is similar in concept to the SR3 system but the numbers are smaller and the extra actions are guaranteed, not subject to a dice roll. |
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Mar 2 2006, 05:32 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
As one of the few people that refuse to move to even SR3, I worked on a system that I thought was a healthy compromise. The SR3 initiative is more friendly to slow people but took the focus off being on the cutting edge. In truth if you are faster there is no way a slow poke is going to pull off an action right after you. I came up with something that took the 3 seconds and distributed the actions more evenly. It is a little more work to keep track of actions, but I think plays well and actually lets mages go in the middle of when a gun bunny shoots, rather than after. Then again the gun bunny doesn't go once, soak damage, wait for every slowboy to act, then go 4 more times. Check it out. Other than having to consult the table and working through it the first time, there were no complaints about the system, and everyone agreed that it was a more even reflection of a combat round. It is a system that is easily figured out. |
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Mar 2 2006, 05:35 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Or you can burn out your mage a bit. I can see your logic though, it always bothered me that stronger people can lift more, trolls with high body resisting more than a pastey decker, people with more willpower can resist spells better. The trade off for the slowness of magic, is utility, flexiblitity, kicking some astral booty, astral travel, concealability, and a never ending supply of ammo. The price, not being a combat monster. I see how that is unfair. |
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Mar 2 2006, 05:41 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 19-January 03 From: Near Boston Mass. Member No.: 3,927 |
I my games we use the old 1st ed. intiiative. Why, because I love to screw with my players. Sam gonna kill ya 6 time before you even know he's there. Of course it an old group so they know when to duck and cover. The reason I bring this up is that it is a problem for the slow players. But I do allow ducking for cover to be a free action. It might be that way anyway. I can't remember since my system is a mish mash. But in a fire fight ducking for cover and delaying an action can work wonders. Also no matter how many actions they get, movement speed is based on the turn, not the action. You might suggest it though. Of course thats not for every group. Just make liberal use of free actions, they can save you life. |
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Mar 2 2006, 05:52 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Yes mages run out of ammo. It is called drain. :P But it isn't about fair or unfair. It is about sitting at the table watching other people have fun playing the game. Which sucks. It is bad enough that you only get an action every once in a while, but the worst is no action at all because there were literally 10 to 15 complex actions taken by the rest of your team beforehand and the combat is already over. :( |
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Mar 2 2006, 06:26 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
You, him, handcuffs and a large dildo. Just remember to make sure you are very clear about explaining what your intention and plan is when asking her to join in. ;) |
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Mar 2 2006, 08:39 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
If you are worried about action, you might have not had the right type of campaigns, as a street sam. As a sammie you are useless when your mage is out astrally casing the place or fighting spirits. (which happen an aweful lot in the games I played) Combat was not something that happened alot in our games, and when it did, it was deadly both ways. Our mages never complained about lack of actions because we didn't get exp for fighting, and they had alot to deal with on their own. The GM kept them busy with Astral barriers, reconnaisance, assensing and spirits. The mage was necessary for penetration with invisiblity, masking and other utility spells. We also managed to keep combat deckers busy as well with having them crack electronics, and jury rig whatever we needed to get past security. I have played both sides of the fence, My best char was a cutter, and he was really quick, 4d6+27, but I was just as happy playing my oak shaman with 1d6+3. Once people realize that combat gets you killed, and doesn't earn you karma, they are usually a bit happier letting the gun bunny have his 15 minutes of combat fame, and then everyone else gets down to their business while the sammie watches. I am not sure if combat was so deadly because all we sported was form fitting, and an armoured jacket, or because it was all about 1 shot 1 kill. Geek the mage was always the last thing on our minds, because razorboy was going to fill you with lead. They didn't mind the fact that each mission I would walk out with a serious wound and they didn't even get shot at. You can still throw spells with drain, it just means you have to be more careful. If you are not soaking your drain, you are spreading yourself too thin. |
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Mar 2 2006, 08:52 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Yes, that doth truely sucketh as well. We tried to avoid having extended astral sessions. Meaning no Astral Quests during a group session, those were taken offline to one on one between the GM and the player. It is also why all Deckers were NPCs. Electronic wireheads PCs to crack doors, sure. But nobody owned a Deck. You are describing having the big blocks of dead air spread around the table, that is just sharing the misery. Cutting up the dead air into smaller, more paletable chunks is a solution. It is also IMO the biggest strength of SR4. Everyone is more or less playing the same game, meaning less sitting around doing diddly. Diddly still happens. Bound to to some extent when you have different types of action and different specialties in a team to deal with them. The diddly just tends to be in smaller doses, and not quite is stark as to have people left feeling their characters might as well not be there. |
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Mar 2 2006, 09:28 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
I can honestly say that we never really had blocks of dead air, everything basically runs concurrently. As you are moving through the facility, the mage is running the astral, the decker/electronic geek comes with you an pops open security. Sometimes the mage would stay offsite with someone watching over the body, but most of the time they were in on the action, because we needed them there. Our groups were usually GM + 3-4 players so everything flowed quickly. Astral quests were done on personal time, but casing the joint astrally was always done before the run started. Only a few players I have played with over the years were overtly "secretive and protective" about their contacts. We were all about sharing the story line with the whole group. So the strength of SR4, is not really something specific to version 4 but rather a global style change for some people. We have always played this way, since the start of SR2. I guess we were just keeners. (probably why I am so fond of the ruleset) |
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Mar 2 2006, 09:45 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Amen. The bogdown times aren't based on the type of action being performed (deckers do not bog down the game, nor do mages, nor do streetsams) but the degree to which the actions can be parallelized. A decker cracking security is no problem. If you wait to have that decker crack security until everyone is standing in front of a door that there's no other way to open, you have a problem. A mage doing astral recon is no problem. A mage doing astral recon so that the rest of the party can even begin figuring out what to do is a problem. A Rigger cracking a drone network is not a problem. A Rigger cracking a drone network so lethal that the rest of the team will be slaughtered if they move in before the Rigger finishes is a problem. So on and soforth. ~J |
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Mar 2 2006, 10:04 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
SR4 was a change to the game to support that sort of thing to happen in all sorts of places, and with the different aspects running the same Initiative. On the road. In the barrens. In the wilderness. Not just in a wired up dungeon crawl building. With SR3 the Deckers were limited to that overwatch of mainly on preplanned breakins, or their own separate runs in the Matrix (AKA pizza time). If secure building breakins was the main staple of your campaign? The dead air wasn't as bad. The rest of the time they were either not deckers at all the player would be on Nintendo in the next room. The rigger/decker combo didn't really work well at all unless you cooked up the cash numbers, because deckers were extremely cash intensive and riggers that wanted to do much were as well. But the hardware overlap was near nill. The closest it came was the patch up of CCSS. |
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Mar 2 2006, 10:21 PM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I think you're thinking of the RPEM. CCSS didn't overlap with Matrix gear.
~J |
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Mar 2 2006, 10:32 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I'm thinking of CCSS as an attempt to allow riggers to do overwatch. Although I guess they did also have that rigger emulation thing for deckers. But both kept the two world separate and using different hardware/software. |
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Mar 2 2006, 10:39 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
we Never did Pizza time.... all the while the decker was in the matrix doing his thing, there was action happening IRL, we would setup defenses, scan the hallways with drones, keep astral lookout, or at least jack in and hitch a ride. Not all our runs involved buildings... some were old temples ... etc. A decker would not come along in the old temple, unless they would be piloting something ... or had other skills, like demolitions etc. The whole scene was like a movie cutting smoothly back and fourth. We kept things reasonable in our campaigns, we never really went past 2055 meta plot wise. I think two people actually scored MP lasers in several years... no one ever used hardened armour on a run. I think I actually used a panther twice in my whole career. |
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Mar 2 2006, 11:01 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Elfwitch: If the GM wants to use 2nd edition initiative your mage character basically isn't going to get some in combat.
Nevertheless the mage is still a very powerful resource. Spell defense! The rest of the party would be helpless before magic attacks if the mage wasn't there. Astral scouting! It's ridiculously powerful. If you play a mage don't think in terms of being a combat powerhouse. Think in terms of being a strategic monolith of death. |
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Mar 2 2006, 11:07 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Well put Ronin
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Mar 2 2006, 11:27 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So what did the player do then? |
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Mar 2 2006, 11:28 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
played a mage for that game.... everyone had more than one character.
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Mar 2 2006, 11:35 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Everyone had more than one character? That would certainly explain the lack of dead air and pizza time. :rotfl: |
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Mar 2 2006, 11:50 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
not in each game ... .we had a few characters each .... and GM would ask which you brought with you..... then the appropriate team was assembled. ( Everyone playing just 1 char ... but the team assembled didn't have holes missing.) There were some games where the GM asked you to specifically bring X char.
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