IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Astral Terrorists
Johnnycache
post Mar 2 2006, 03:21 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 20-May 05
Member No.: 7,405



Apologies if this has been covered somewhere, but I searched and dug through the threads on 4-7 as much as I convienently could...

Does it say anywhere or has it been errata'd anywhere that casting a spell from the astral does physical drain?

I mean, I sort of get an implication that you can only cast mana spells on astral forms, but jeez, it seems like the tactic of just nuking a dude astrally just got a bit easier...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Mar 2 2006, 03:39 PM
Post #2


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



I don't believe that casting spells on the astral does physical drain any longer. However, you can only hit targets on the same plane of existance with your spells, so you can't really nuke anyone that isn't percieving, dual natured, or projecting.

The scary part is that there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you from conjuring on the astral plane. Now that would let you nuke someone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Johnnycache
post Mar 2 2006, 03:49 PM
Post #3


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 20-May 05
Member No.: 7,405



QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
I don't believe that casting spells on the astral does physical drain any longer. However, you can only hit targets on the same plane of existance with your spells, so you can't really nuke anyone that isn't percieving, dual natured, or projecting.

The scary part is that there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you from conjuring on the astral plane. Now that would let you nuke someone.

Can you tell me where it says that you can only hit stuff on your current plane? Not that I doubt you, I just don't want to re-read the whole section looking for one line. Trying to get some stuff ready for a game tomorrow :(
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 2 2006, 04:48 PM
Post #4


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (SR4 p173)
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dissonance
post Mar 2 2006, 04:52 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 515
Joined: 19-January 04
Member No.: 5,992



I'm amazed. I thought I knew the exact page number that it was on, but now that I go to look for it, I can't find anything that explicitly prohibits casting a mana-based spell on the physical realm from the astral.

In the section about astral projection, they make it clear that mana-based spells are the only option, so that takes some scariness out. However, I can't immediately find the thing that prohibits what you want to do.

HOWEVER, I'd be willing to put money on the fact that I'm just incompetent at searching because I'm also studying for a test this morning.

EDIT: See? Totally incompetent. Thanks, Az. :grinbig:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 2 2006, 04:54 PM
Post #6


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (Dissonance @ Mar 2 2006, 12:52 PM)
I'm amazed.  I thought I knew the exact page number that it was on, but now that I go to look for it, I can't find anything that explicitly prohibits casting a mana-based spell on the physical realm from the astral.

In the section about astral projection, they make it clear that mana-based spells are the only option, so that takes some scariness out.  However, I can't immediately find the thing that prohibits what you want to do.

It's under the Spellcasting section. :) Happy to help!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dissonance
post Mar 2 2006, 04:58 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 515
Joined: 19-January 04
Member No.: 5,992



As for the conjuring? The only thing that really jibes about that is that you're not on your home turf. I could see the Home Turf modifier applying to spirits if you're summoning on the Astral. Other than that? It's just this underarching sense of 'wrongness' about it.

Because it's not quite scary enough, yanno?

EDIT: Then again, with edge, it's not like two more dice is going to be some kind of massive boon to them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brahm
post Mar 2 2006, 05:23 PM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,635
Joined: 27-November 05
Member No.: 8,006



QUOTE (Dissonance @ Mar 2 2006, 11:52 AM)
I'm amazed.  I thought I knew the exact page number that it was on, but now that I go to look for it, I can't find anything that explicitly prohibits casting a mana-based spell on the physical realm from the astral.

Page 173, Step 3: Choose the Target(s). You have to be dual natured in some way to do that. You can't while you are projecting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Johnnycache
post Mar 2 2006, 06:58 PM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 20-May 05
Member No.: 7,405



Thanks, all! I have one player I know will try this because he was willing to do it in 3rd once in a while.

New questions arising from thread:

1. So you could target a duel being? What if you did so with a manaball - would it hit non-astral living things around him? (my gut says no - the fire that's cooking him is only on the astral plane and he's the only one sticking his nose into the astral plane so his buddies are safe)

2. If you summon a spirit can you then accompany it somewhere astrally and have it not count as a "remote service"?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neko128
post Mar 2 2006, 07:13 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209



So you can't channel area-effect spells through foci any more, because area-effect spells require LOS to target, and you can't target an aura from your astral form?

Or am I misunderstanding it somewhere?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 2 2006, 07:32 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



The RAW effectively says you can't cast on targets that aren't on the same plane as you. In the case of a dual target, it's active in two planes at once so can be targeted from either plane.

However, that doesn't mean an AoE cast on a dual target is going to affect both planes. The AoE is still limited by the "same plane" restriction, per my reading.

So I agree with Johnny's assumption that a manaball cast from the astral onto an active focus is going to hurt only the astrally-active targets within its area, and there's no "bleed over" into the physical.

That plugs up some exploitative headaches, in any case.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brahm
post Mar 2 2006, 08:07 PM
Post #12


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,635
Joined: 27-November 05
Member No.: 8,006



QUOTE (Johnnycache @ Mar 2 2006, 01:58 PM)
1. So you could target a duel being? What if you did so with a manaball - would it hit non-astral living things around him? (my gut says no - the fire that's cooking him is only on the astral plane and he's the only one sticking his nose into the astral plane so his buddies are safe)

That is called Grounding, and it hasn't worked in SR since SR2. I'm not sure it ever worked with Mana spells. It might have been Physical spells only. But I'm not sure about that because I didn't play SR2, only SR3 with a GM that accidentally house ruled Grounding forward until someone pointed out that it wasn't in the SR3 rules. I tell you it was some nasty to have an astral projecting mage Ground a fireball through an active focus. Fire out of nowhere. :( Worse yet it happened to my character when I couldn't make a game so my wife was playing my character. She didn't know you could deactive the focus, and she also didn't know the rules well enough to point out to the GM that Grounding was removed. Three fireballs later the party was in serious, serious trouble when in fact the only thing that could have happened by the rules is that the focus would have been deactivated without it's physical form being harmed at all.

EDIT Good thing that before any PCs died my wife called me on my cellphone to bitch at me for carrying such a dangerous item without being able to counterattack an astral only opponent (PC was Magicians Way Adept, the SR3 version of Mystic Adepts).

QUOTE
2. If you summon a spirit can you then accompany it somewhere astrally and have it not count as a "remote service"?


Since you are effectively whereever your projection is, it is within the require range so no it is not remote.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post Mar 2 2006, 08:14 PM
Post #13


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



Dammit Brahm, beat me to it by --> <-- much. What's funny is the first sentence of mine was within 1 word of yours.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 2 2006, 08:20 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 2 2006, 04:07 PM)
I'm not sure it ever worked with Mana spells. It might have been Physical spells only.

That's my memory of it. Also, all spellcasting while projecting created Physical drain, and since all physical AoEs had especially nasty drain codes it was usually a tricky stunt to pull off without blowing yourself up.

Not impossible, of course. It just meant you were using a lot of your pool to soak drain rather than do damage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churl Beck
post Mar 3 2006, 03:05 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 26-January 06
Member No.: 8,193



What about manifesting? (pg. 184) It describes manifesting as "the opposite of astral perception," which suggests that a manifested character can target purely physical beings (in the same way that an astrally perceiving character can target purely astral beings).

Also, a manifested astral form becomes vulnerable to mana attacks from both the physical and astral planes. So a manifesting character essentially become "triple-natured": vulnerable to (1) physical attacks against his physical body, (2) mana attacks against his astral body, and (3) mana attacks against his manifested image. Is there any reason he shouldn't be able to defend his manifested image?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 03:09 PM
Post #16


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



Well, there's manifesting and there's materialization. Materialization is what spirits do when they assume physical form. At that point they're (somewhat) vulnerable to bullets and the like.

Manifesting is when you let physical stuff perceive you. That's the "opposite" part, because astral perception is when you let yourself perceive astral stuff. You're still invulnerable to physical attack because you haven't created a body out of your astral self; just the ethereal appearance of a body.

Read the sentence that splits the two columns on the page; it explicitly says that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 03:14 PM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



Oh, hey, here's a good way to think about it: Manifesting is like giving everyone astral perception that only works on you. Only, it doesn't make them dual.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churl Beck
post Mar 3 2006, 03:18 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 26-January 06
Member No.: 8,193



QUOTE (Azralon)
Well, there's manifesting and there's materialization. Materialization is what spirits do when they assume physical form. At that point they're (somewhat) vulnerable to bullets and the like.

Manifesting is when you let physical stuff perceive you. That's the "opposite" part, because astral perception is when you let yourself perceive astral stuff. You're still invulnerable to physical attack because you haven't created a body out of your astral self; just the ethereal appearance of a body.

Read the sentence that splits the two columns on the page; it explicitly says that.

Yep, I know the difference between materialization and manifestation. But my question is about mana attacks. A manifested being is now vulnerable to "mana-based magical effects on the physical plane" (which, as I remember it, was not the case in previous editions). It doesn't say anything about a manifested character being able to attack. But if mana spells can get TO him from the physical world, then why can't they get FROM him to the physical world?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 03:28 PM
Post #19


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



Oh, I see. Hrm.

Yeah, it looks like manifesting makes you vulnerable to a new vector without giving you a new vector of attack. Basically it saves your mana-casting hostile the effort of astrally perceiving to blast you.

Fortunately you probably have Counterspelling and can always shut down the assault by unmanifesting. That's a Simple Action, if I remember?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churl Beck
post Mar 3 2006, 03:51 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 26-January 06
Member No.: 8,193



Here's another question: what happens if you stand in the spot of a manifested being, and then astrally perceive? Telefrag?

Or more realistic: foci (weapon foci or otherwise). Since these are solid in astral space, couldn't you use them to attack a manifested form? E.g., suppose there was a Watcher Spirit sitting on the ground. Could you use your Sustaining Focus in a crude attack, like using a rock to crush a bug?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 03:56 PM
Post #21


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



I dunno about the telefrag situation, but the rest seems completely plausible to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Johnnycache
post Mar 3 2006, 09:06 PM
Post #22


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 20-May 05
Member No.: 7,405



A manifested form still uses it's astral init and characteristics, right? So you couldn't really fight it in any meaningful way with a weapon focus, could you? It would just flit into the air or through a wall or something.

If a mage or an adept burns out, they DO lose the ability to use any weapon focus bonded to them, right? because it would be horrible if someone spend 5-20 points on a low magic rating and a weapon focus and just burned themself out, becoming a sammy with a 'magic sword'
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Mar 3 2006, 09:10 PM
Post #23


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE
No magician may bind more foci than her Magic attribute.

Looks that way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 09:12 PM
Post #24


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (Johnnycache)
A manifested form still uses it's astral init and characteristics, right? So you couldn't really fight it in any meaningful way with a weapon focus, could you? It would just flit into the air or through a wall or something.


It'd come down to if the astral guy had positioned himself in such a way that the physical guy could reach him. It's unlikely, as usually you don't want to manifest to talk to a dude with a magical sword that could hurt you... and you certainly don't want to do it anywhere near him.

Now, if the swordsman was ambushing you, that'd be another story. Better roll well on your Surprise test.

QUOTE (Johnnycache)
If a mage or an adept burns out, they DO lose the ability to use any weapon focus bonded to them, right? because it would be horrible if someone spend 5-20 points on a low magic rating and a weapon focus and just burned themself out, becoming a sammy with a 'magic sword'


Creating a burned-out mage like that in chargen is possible, but a horribly inefficient use of build points. For instance, if you got 5 points of Essence loss due to crazy amounts of implants, then you'd have to have also bought 6 points of Magic to still be a magician of any kind.

If you spent the 15 BPs to get the default Magic rating of 1 and then got ANY amount of cyber or bio, you'd suddenly become a mundane. So you'd need to spend 10-65 more BPs in chargen to make up for your Magic loss due to Essence loss.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brahm
post Mar 3 2006, 09:14 PM
Post #25


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,635
Joined: 27-November 05
Member No.: 8,006



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 3 2006, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE
No magician may bind more foci than her Magic attribute.

Looks that way.

Depends on what you class as burned out. If you Initiate a Grade can you not drop below 1 Essense and still have a point of Magic? You just can't Initiate because you run into the Grade exceeding Magic rating, and you can't increase Magic rating because you are at your Magic cap.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 14th April 2024 - 08:19 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.