SR3 vs 4 in Play Options

[Neskeptic]

This question goes out to grizzled veterans of both SR3 and SR4. We haven’t played Shadowrun for about 18 months. We are about to start SR4.

My basic question is: How does it play by comparison?

Compared to your SR3 experiences, how are the SR4 rules during actual game play?

Do you find them very different? Better? Smoother? Slower? Faster? Etc.

[TinkerGnome]

Just a quick reminder that everyone should read the relevant sticky before they talk SR3 vs. SR4. At least try to be civil.

[Neskeptic]

I can't believe I missed that sticky! OK, everyone play nice. In the end, I am just curious to hear your opinions.

[fool]

I'm finding that combat goes more quickly now that we have started to get the rules down. Both as a player and GM. Things definitely go quicker. However, some people might not like the restrictions on character creation.

[stevebugge]

General feeling, I'm mixed. SR 3 allowed for highly detailed character generation and highly detailed action. But SR3 did so at the expense of consistency. SR4 works fairly well, albeit differently from SR3, it uses the same basic rule structure for all activities, however it does so at the expense of detail and to a degree, realism. That said I find that I prefer running and playing SR4 because there are fewer rule variations to keep track of, and by and large there is less number crunching to do, so generally in my games the plot progresses more smoothly.

[Thanee]

I like that things run very smooth. I always 'hated' the target number modifiers in SR (and the rolls against TN 6 or higher, which quickly happened with some modifiers, when suddenly the average number of successes dropped extremely fast). In fact, I had my own dice number modifier house rules in SR2 already, which scrapped the standard SR2 (and 3) system in favor of something very much akin to how SR4 does it now (tho, there were TNs of 4 and 5, some things, which made the task itself more difficult still raised the TN, while most things, which affected the ability of whoever attempted the task just altered the DN). That's much closer to the 'spirit' of the dice system IMHO, and as such SR4 is a big step up to me.

I'm not entirely sure how I like the changes in the Matrix section, but it looks like 'Deckers' (yeah, there are no 'Deckers' anymore) are much better playable now.

I do miss the old dice pools some, I liked them. :)

The game still plays and feels like Shadowrun. It's even more deadly now.

It's definitely worth a look, if you know the old system. If you don't like it, you can still go back anytime. :)

Bye
Thanee

[otomik]

I've played one session as an archtype, trying to familiarize myself with the rules. I like how they got rid of combat pools but this Edge mechanic... I'm not a huge fan of save your ass points and it seems to be very powerfully unlethalizing in it's effect. Some people like this stuff because it's only a game but calling do-overs all the time, deus ex machina and all just takes my mind out of the setting. I'd rename it something like the "handicap" stat, like in golf, so certain players that are inexperienced aren't taken out too quickly and their feelings aren't hurt and they can pretend they can play with the big boys.

the 4th edition rulebook is a rush job, they tried to put too much stuff in there when I would have been happy getting the basics. It's huge, I just wasted a lot of time trying to find the rules for cultured bioware, it's not in there but it's mentioned a few times in the text, very confusing.

[I find the sticky to be very overbearing, evoking nietzsche, anything I just said can be taken as a positive or a negative by someone that thinks our negative comments are going to destroy Shadowrun Inc. really, it's future is in the hands of the upcoming microsoft game]

[Ophis]

Really finding it runs nice and smooth, a few things I never got my head round (rigger3 stuff) now makes sense to me.

I kinda miss pools, but my players don't. Edge is interesting and makes the players agonise nicely in a way they never did about karma pool/combat pool.

The advancement is slow, really slow, I've rebuilt a few ubercharacters with players for some high powered revisiting of old games, and while the sniper ran out of stuff to do at about 800 (was a 450 karma character, gave him more to account for a five year gap in play) the mages are on similar numbers but barely level with their old selves, and the sniper looks like he should (and did at 450 karma) 160 game session to reach top of the game seems good to me.

Now I just have to play it...

[MaxHunter]

It runs smoother. Eyeballing let's the GM escape serious numbercrunching in the middle of firefights. (Until you get the hold of rules and then it becomes simple numbercrunching.)

Hacking is a great great improvement. It really is so much nicer to play a hacker you wouldn't believe.

The vehicle rules are nicer, but underdeveloped, I guess you can only squish so much material in one book.

All in all I am eagerly waiting for the sourcebooks to develop the game.
Also eagerly praying for said sourcebooks not to Übercomplicate things again.

cheers,

Max

[Clyde]

You've definitely got to watch the money. You can'th and out SR3 levels of cash (10,000 :nuyen: to 30,000 :nuyen: ) but you can't' just give five grand to a whole team like the opening fiction, either.

[Brahm]

[Dashifen]

I played SR3 for about eight years and none of the earlier editions so I don't know if that makes me a grizzled veteran or not, but I have to say SR4 is a god send. I know, rabid fanboy, yadda yadda yadda.

Anyway, the gripes others have about character creation haven't happened to me in the real world yet, and one or two of my players actually like the skill/attribute caps at character gen (one max attribute, 2 skills at 6 or one at 5) as they leave room for advancement.

I'm a little miffed at the number of extended tests since they seem to really make the progress of a game hit the wall as your hacker rolls dice for a few moments trying to hack. I'm hoping that as players get the rules down they'll begin to make their own tests and I won't have to hand hold them through it all, but we can all dream, right?

I like the new corps, too, if only for new blood to put into the waters. Granted we don't know much about Horizon and NeoNet and Evo are nothing more that re-worked old corporations, but I've had some fun convincing my players that there's more to Evo than just a new name.... And I've never had a problem divorcing my game from canon anyway.

Hacking is a wonderful change if you don't mind the fact that much of it is left up to the GM (Edit tests anyone?) and in SR3 I had a hard and fast no-riggers rule, but now the new vehicular rules (especially the new Chase Combat stuff) make it much more sane. The vehicular customization is a little lacking, but we don't have a "Rigger 4" to work with yet?

Game play is pretty smooth. The fact that almost everything is an opposed test now makes things very nice. Combat does seem to be more deadly, as does spell drain at times.

Hope you enjoy.

[Solstice]

Overall it runs smoother and for the most part faster, at least after you get used to the rules. There is a definite sacrifice of realism with the streamlined rules and I'm still not loving the character generation. The new rules also seem pretty thought out for the most part (see "Resolving crashes" thread). I also like the changes to the magic system and astral. Not sure I like the reverse inflation either, especially when converting existing characters that may have :nuyen: 200,000+.

[Cain]

I'll be the voice of dissent. There are a lot more tests to make than ever before, with just as many modifers. So, I've discovered that you spend more time rolling the dice than ever before. Character creation is a nightmare, with my fastest attempt taking over two hours, and my worst taking several days. Rigging is better, but that's not saying much; competitive basket weaving would have been better than the Maneuver Score.

In general, SR4 isn't *that* much simpler or faster than SR3, and it's still a tortise with arthritis when compared to other systems, such as Savage Worlds.

[Brahm]

[Azralon]

[Brahm]

[Cain]

[Synner]

Just a couple of weeks ago I introduced two complete SR newbs (Vampire and D20 vets though) to my regular crew (12+ years SR experience) for a new SR4 campaign and everybody had complete characters ready (that includes upgraded commlinks with full program loads all round) and was playing within 30 minutes.

[Cain]

[Brahm]

[Azralon]

[Cain]

[Brahm]

[neko128]