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SR3 vs 4 in Play

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Cain

Mar 3 2006, 06:53 PM

Post #26

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QUOTE

Ya, SR3 was fast because Skill choices were so easy.

Exactly. Skill choices in Sr4 are much more difficult, as is balancing them out. You also can't add by 4's nearly as fast as you can add by 1's, which is another reason why chargen is so much slower.

And in comparison to other games, SR4 is postively glacial. nWod and Savage Worlds are designed for super-fast character generation. Only the priority system could keep up with them, and even that would get iffy in the hands of a new player.

QUOTE

The location of the Qualities is a problem?

Yes. In almost every other game I've seen out over the last few years, the equivalent section on edges/flaws has been in another chapter, or a subchapter. That way, you can read straight through the rules on character creation, and reference them quickly. They also include a build point chart, most of the time; but they don't confuse a cost chart with a rules reference. Dropping it right in the middle of the chapter means you'll have to do a lot more back-and-forth in order to see the actual rules you need.

QUOTE

Beatinga dead horse, perhaps, but this strikes me as extremely strange, as well. I took my SR4 rulebook over to a friend's house; and inside 4 hours, both of them had characters down to the polishing-only level.

I could probably pull one off inside of four hours as well. My problems are pretty much this: the continual back-and-forth through the rulebook, the arbitrary limits on stats and skills, the fact that messing up on one section can send you back to square one, the fact that balancing skills and stats is a lot more complex than before, the fact that you have to spend down to every last point and nuyen, trying to decide between skills and skill groups takes forever, contacts now being a balancing act instead of a choice, and how the rewards for overspecialization encourage super-fiddliness.

I personally despise super-fiddly character creation systems; I think of them as an excercise in math rather than a fun activity. Sometimes you can make up for this, by allowing greater character flexibility; but the stat and skill caps pretty much prevent that from happening. Granted, I'll probably get faster as I create more characters; but I've done a dozen so far, and I still can't pull it off in less than two hours, *excluding* gear. Too many cross-references, and too many fiddly details.

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Mar 3 2006, 06:57 PM Post #27
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Our house rules give out more equipment, contacts, and skill points for starting characters, and it still takes me an hour to make a character - and part of that is spent discussing the character with the other players ("You are hunted by the who? Uh... I guess my character has a lot of contacts in the... Vory."), and determining how my character knows the other characters and why they work together and such. -Frank

neko128

Mar 3 2006, 06:59 PM

Post #28

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QUOTE (Cain)

Yes. In almost every other game I've seen out over the last few years, the equivalent section on edges/flaws has been in another chapter, or a subchapter. That way, you can read straight through the rules on character creation, and reference them quickly. They also include a build point chart, most of the time; but they don't confuse a cost chart with a rules reference. Dropping it right in the middle of the chapter means you'll have to do a lot more back-and-forth in order to see the actual rules you need.

Interesting. You're the first person I've heard comment on it at all, let alone complain about it.

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 07:04 PM

Post #29

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 01:53 PM)

QUOTE

Ya, SR3 was fast because Skill choices were so easy.

Exactly. Skill choices in Sr4 are much more difficult, as is balancing them out. You also can't add by 4's nearly as fast as you can add by 1's, which is another reason why chargen is so much slower.

It is more like you end up a smaller set of Skills in SR3, unless you like putting your character at serious risk of All 1's and being relatively weak because you don't exploit the gaping BP vs. karma whole in SR3. You also, if using the Priority system, were constrained to one of a few set number of points you got to put into Skills.

But still we are coming back to your inability or refusal to use one of a number of computer aids, and I guess difficulty counting by 4s or just multiplying by 4 at the end. I admit I'm pretty good multiplying by 4 in my head.

Cain

Mar 3 2006, 07:10 PM

Post #30

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QUOTE

But still we are coming back to your inability and/or refusal to use one of a number of computer,

One of my gaming buddies doesn't have an internet-capable computer. Even if I can download a program, he can't; and character creation goes at the rate of the slowest one in the group. Since we always create characters together-- so we can ask questions of the GM during the process, instead of finding out mid-stream that we've misinterpreted something-- we're stuck with pen and paper. Oh, and the one-book problem, which does slow things down further. I wasn't counting that, in my own examples.

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 07:18 PM

Post #31

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 02:10 PM)

QUOTE

But still we are coming back to your inability and/or refusal to use one of a number of computer,

One of my gaming buddies doesn't have an internet-capable computer. Even if I can download a program, he can't; and character creation goes at the rate of the slowest one in the group. Since we always create characters together-- so we can ask questions of the GM during the process, instead of finding out mid-stream that we've misinterpreted something-- we're stuck with pen and paper. Oh, and the one-book problem, which does slow things down further. I wasn't counting that, in my own examples.

So this computer for this friend of yours doesn't have a floppy disk drive or a USB port, or nobody has a USB drive?

EDIT And nobody has internet access and a CDROM burner?

You can mostly make up your character beforehand. Limited by the slowest person in the group? Sharing a book? You not mostly finishing you character before showing up to talk to the GM? Only having one book for lots of people. Having to reread most of the book for each time you create a character? Sounds a lot less like an SR4 issue, and a lot more like you putting in a lot of effort to make it hard. :(

It would take me weeks to finish a character if I did it only while judging knives. Mostly because of the extended hospital stay for all the cuts since I am the suck at juggling anything. But the huge creation time would be due to my own stupidity.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 3 2006, 07:19 PM Post #32
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	I find what makes SR4 char hard to make is how the book is layed out. I spend more time flipping pages then actually char creation. If it wasn't for that I would be done in less then a hr easy. Anything less and I doubt its a game system that I would even bother putting in any play time in. Unless you place it in a beer and chips catagorie

Azralon

Mar 3 2006, 07:30 PM

Post #33

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QUOTE (Deadjester)

I find what makes SR4 char hard to make is how the book is layed out.

I'll definitely agree on that. The chapters and segments are very nicely split out this time around, but there are little gotchas here and there that seem to have been put in the wrong places. Or, at least, not adequately cross-referenced.

For the record, that's a known problem at FanPro; they've recently semi-apologized for their editing foul-ups and have taken steps to migitate it in the future.

In any case, y'all really shouldn't hound Cain about his "glacial chargen" issues. For one, he's already outlined his various circumstantial problems. For two, Bull did just (sternly) tell everyone to be nice in any "SR3 vs SR4" conversations.

kigmatzomat

Mar 3 2006, 07:31 PM

Post #34

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QUOTE (Cain)

Since we always create characters together-- so we can ask questions of the GM during the process, instead of finding out mid-stream that we've misinterpreted something-- we're stuck with pen and paper. Oh, and the one-book problem, which does slow things down further. I wasn't counting that, in my own examples.

Huh. We played Sr4 for the first right after Gencon, when I had the only book. I xeroxed the page with the build point costs and made notes on the stat/skill limits. I also xeroxed the first couple of pages out of the gear section that had the most common weapons & armor. I'd say that 5 people who hadn't seen the Sr4 book (but had played SR3) made characters in under 2 hours, including a mage, rigger and a decker.

I suspect you are somehow making life more difficult for yourself. I've got one friend who can make Champions characters like crazy but takes for-freakin-ever to make a 1st level D&D character. His problem is the quest for perfection; Champions is hard to pull that off but he's already got "packages" of pre-optimized powers that he can rattle off from memory.

If this is a problem for your group, agree that your characters can be revamped after the first or second session. Constant character churn is a pain so you can avoid this by setting a number of points you can change, like 25. So after the 1st session you decide your hacker's programs aren't what you need so you can move around 25BP to get things right.

Cain

Mar 3 2006, 07:32 PM

Post #35

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QUOTE

So this computer for this friend of yours doesn't have a floppy disk drive or a USB port, or nobody has a USB drive?

He has a 386....

QUOTE

You can mostly make up your character beforehand. Limited by the slowest person in the group? Sharing a book? You not mostly finishing you character before showing up to talk to the GM? Only having one book for lots of people. Having to reread most of the book for each time you create a character? Sounds a lot less like an SR4 issue, and a lot more like you putting in a lot of effort to make it hard.

You can't make up a character beforehand unless you've got the book. At any event, those are side problems. Even when I have the book on hand, it takes me several hours to even make the attempt. And I can't exactly pack an internet-running tower with me everywhere I go, so if I want to experiment with a character during my lunch break, I'm stuck to pen-and-paper.

At any event, that doesn't change the fact that I can do a pen-and-paper character much faster in other systems, some of which are meant to be a lot more complex than Sr4 purports to be. The question comes down to how many fiddly little details you have to account for, and SR4 has an awful lot of them.

QUOTE

For the record, that's a known problem at FanPro; they've recently semi-apologized for their editing foul-ups and have taken steps to migitate it in the future.

That actually makes me feel better. Character creation *would* go a lot faster of the editing and layout were improved.

Moon-Hawk

Mar 3 2006, 07:35 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (Cain)

He has a 386....

:|
He....um....but......oh.

Azralon

Mar 3 2006, 07:50 PM

Post #37

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 02:32 PM)

He has a 386....

:|
He....um....but......oh.

Egad. My phone has more processing power.

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 08:01 PM

Post #38

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QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 3 2006, 02:30 PM)

QUOTE (Deadjester)

I find what makes SR4 char hard to make is how the book is layed out.

I'll definitely agree on that. The chapters and segments are very nicely split out this time around, but there are little gotchas here and there that seem to have been put in the wrong places. Or, at least, not adequately cross-referenced.

They still have groups of rules split in odd and inconvient ways. The obviously based the SR4 document heavily on SR3, and a number of the old organization issues have come through. The location of the Qualities I don't have much of an issue with, mostly because I don't refer to it that often. I find the names fairly self explainatory now that I have read through the Qualities a couple of times.

QUOTE

For the record, that's a known problem at FanPro; they've recently semi-apologized for their editing foul-ups and have taken steps to migitate it in the future.

You sure you aren't thinking of the FanPro D apologizing for the translation issues that MY$T1C posted a few days back?

QUOTE

In any case, y'all really shouldn't hound Cain about his "glacial chargen" issues. For one, he's already outlined his various circumstantial problems. For two, Bull did just (sternly) tell everyone to be nice in any "SR3 vs SR4" conversations.

The circumstances appear to be much more the issue which is not the tone Cain took up front. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around exactly why it is taking him hours. I can only think he is trying including a lot of learning and relearning rules and extensive tweaking and retweaking in with that. Plus perhaps socializing with friends while he is around them for hours?

QUOTE

So this computer for this friend of yours doesn't have a floppy disk drive or a USB port, or nobody has a USB drive?

He has a 386....

So I guess that means a floppy drive of some sort? :) With a CDROM drive or not? Is he at least running Windows 95? If so you should try Deagnns on his machine, since I'll assume he doesn't have Excel. Otherwise if he is running Windows 3.1 he effectively doesn't have a computer. He has a calculator that has the added feature of being able to play the original Civilization, which means isn't all bad. :)

QUOTE

You can't make up a character beforehand unless you've got the book.

I challenge that statement. Have you tried this? You can certainly nail down the solid basics of the character. Those creation programs give at least a short explaination of things, outside of the non-implant gear. Some of them even give the stats for the weapons and ammo. Once you have a print out just tweaking is pretty easy math to do by hand as you are just adding a few points here and balancing that with subtracting some there. I did this when creating a backup character that I wanted to ask the GM about a few things before finalizing the character with pencil markups.

Azralon

Mar 3 2006, 08:06 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE (Brahm)

You sure you aren't thinking of the FanPro D apologizing for the translation issues that MY$T1C posted a few days back?

Why, so I am.

Cain

Mar 3 2006, 08:16 PM

Post #40

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QUOTE

I challenge that statement. Have you tried this? You can certainly nail down the solid basics of the character.

Yes. Unfortunately, unless you're trying a very basic character, you stand a good chance of misremembering some vital detail. For example, I had the concept of a gun-fu mystic adept, only to discover that I couldn't build him, because he couldn't have Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, and Mystic adept all at once. I ended up having to redo him from scratch.

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 08:18 PM

Post #41

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QUOTE (Cain)

I couldn't build him, because he couldn't have Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, and Mystic adept all at once.

What program where you using for this?

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 08:19 PM

Post #42

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QUOTE (Azralon)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 3 2006, 04:01 PM)

You sure you aren't thinking of the FanPro D apologizing for the translation issues that MY$T1C posted a few days back?

Why, so I am.

I made the same misreading the first time. But I shook my head, disbelieved, and succeeded on my Will save when I reread it. :)

Cain

Mar 3 2006, 09:13 PM

Post #43

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 03:16 PM)

I couldn't build him, because he couldn't have Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, and Mystic adept all at once.

What program where you using for this?

What program can I carry with me to work? I was doing my preliminary design on my lunch break. Usually I can do a lot of the prepwork in advance, to get a concept, and sometimes I can even have the character statted out. Not in SR4-- although to be fair, I can't do that in Champions or GURPS, either.

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 09:22 PM

Post #44

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 04:13 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 3 2006, 01:18 PM)

QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 3 2006, 03:16 PM)

I couldn't build him, because he couldn't have Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, and Mystic adept all at once.

What program where you using for this?

What program can I carry with me to work? I was doing my preliminary design on my lunch break. Usually I can do a lot of the prepwork in advance, to get a concept, and sometimes I can even have the character statted out. Not in SR4-- although to be fair, I can't do that in Champions or GURPS, either.

So you have no lunchtime computer access at work, no time at home with the computer, no book, and don't remember the rules. You also do not have a replica of page 348 of the BBB to carry with you, because that would help. It certainly should have enlightened you to your problem you gave as an example.

Yup, you are screwed. But truthfully it has little to do with SR4 creation outside not being the most simplistic set of rules. It certainly isn't due to a difference between SR3 and SR4 outside of one you apparently have books for or have memmorized and the other not.

Azralon

Mar 3 2006, 09:25 PM

Post #45

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QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 3 2006, 05:22 PM)

So you have no computer access at work

I think he meant he can't run any program at work. I mean, he's obviously typing on something to post.

Unless there's technomancy involved, then there'd be a coolness factor. Oh, and many armed people in white hazmat suits who'd like a peek "under the hood."

Brahm

Mar 3 2006, 09:30 PM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 3 2006, 04:25 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 3 2006, 05:22 PM)

So you have no computer access at work

I think he meant he can't run any program at work. I mean, he's obviously typing on something to post.

Sorry, yes. I guess his computer could be set up by the network nazis to block any outside programs and the computer does not have anything, including his Web browser, capable of openning an Excel file. Sort of like a paperless office, only spreadsheetless.

Eyeless Blond

Mar 4 2006, 01:21 AM

Post #47

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 3 2006, 04:25 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 3 2006, 05:22 PM)

So you have no computer access at work

I think he meant he can't run any program at work. I mean, he's obviously typing on something to post.

Sorry, yes. I guess his computer could be set up by the network nazis to block any outside programs and the computer does not have anything, including his Web browser, capable of openning an Excel file. Sort of like a paperless office, only spreadsheetless.

Or he just doesn't have Internet access. It's like that at my job too (night shift); the admins are so lazy they told their boss that they "ran out" of valid email addresses awhile back so most of the plant members don't have one. How exactly you "run out" of email addresses when you run your own mail server doesn't make much sense to me, but what do I know? They're also extremely protective of their network; you can't bring CDs, diskettes, or storage media of any kind, and you're not going to just smuggle one in because security scans you with a metal detector.

But I work at a precious metals refinery, one that lost quite a bit of money to theft a few years back, so I've got some extremely special circumstances when it comes to getting a disk in and out.

Anyway, re: sr3 vs sr4. I've only made one real character under sr4 so far, but from what I've noticed the system is indeed very "fiddly", as Cain said. Of course, so was sr3. The problems, for me, are these:

1) Overspecialization is encouraged, to the point where it's really hard to make a generalist under SR4 rules that is nearly as effective as an overspecialist. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that an SR4 generalist will nearly always be weaker than his SR3 counterpart (similar character built under different rules), while an SR4 specialist will always be stronger than his SR3 counterpart.
2) There is a sharp disconnect between the chargen's flat costs for everything and karma system's stepped costs. This one is really silly at this point, as the BP system has gotten so complicated already that there is very little reason to keep the differing costs except as a sacred cow of the old edition.
3) Even besides 2), there are a number of other fiddly bits in the difference between chargen and character advancement that really confuse the issue. The difference between splitting a skill group and keeping it whole, for instance.
4) The limits on everything at chargen seem arbitrary and forced. 200BP max into attributes can buy you a 3 in everything, and that's about it. Investing the maximum number os points possible in attributes makes you... average. You can be the best in the world in one skill, but you can't take a single skill group to 5 at chargen. Etc etc.
5) Contacts are too expensive at the low end and too cheap at the high end. 2 Build Points should not be how much it costs to get you Sam the local wino, and 12 Build points should not be how much it costs you to get a megacorporate VP to take a bullet for you.

These rules complexities encourage min-maxing, to the point where you consciously have to turn your back on it in order to create characters in a resonable amount of time. If you don't, then you can easily spend Cain's several hours tweaking a character to both be useful in the short term, optimized to take advantage of the karma/point divide in the long term, have only one high-level contact, completely separate magic and cyber unless you can hit that exact sweet spot of .66 cyberware and .66 bioware that almost makes it worth it (.66+.66/2=.99), etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that chargen isn't *hard* so much as it is obfuscated and abusable.

The organization of the book doesn't help matters any. :)

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 4 2006, 02:31 AM Post #48
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	I don't really believe I have hounded anyone about anything in my statements. When I brought up char creation time it was based on page flipping, not any one person here. Cains issues with char creation is Cains problems not mine therefor it means nothing to me and my statement has nothing to do with him. But him bringing it up made realize a issue that had been bugging me. Therefor Bulls play nice policy about SR4 vs SR3, means very little to me in this instance. I just feel that "you all" statment is to broad and over kill here. If this has nothing to do with anything I stated then feel free to ignor this post.

Brahm

Mar 4 2006, 02:10 PM

Post #49

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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 3 2006, 08:21 PM)

I guess what I'm saying is that chargen isn't *hard* so much as it is obfuscated and abusable.

:wobble: Stunalicious! You find that FanPro having found an effective counterbalancing of the not so sharp anymore disconnect, as I pointed out in reply to you before, against shortterm viability of the character as a bad thing. :?

Yes, you could weedle away the hours trying to optimize . Because it is really hard to find now because the good enough to play region is larger and the differences between optimal and not more stubtle. However just because SR4 character creation gives you lots and lots of viable options to use, it certainly doesn't force you to because there are plenty of viable and near optimal options that are just there. They don't happen to be as simple and dump all 6's into a few skills and then Specialize one or two lesser skills. But hey, such is the price for heavily softening the disconnect between character generation and character advancement.

SR play encourage a specialists, always has. Such is the nature of a team environment. However SR4 character generation in truth discourages buying a Specialization and maximizing Attributes, and reduces the advantages of maximizing Skills. And it shows in the characters that come out. A strong character has a large mix of Skills ratings.

The area of Contact costs I do see as a problem. They are all overpriced. However the most overpriced are both the bottom end and the top end. The costest to being worth the cost is in middle, but you'll likely not want to purchase more than 2 or 3 in the entire team unless the GM plays up their importance or there are no teammates that can act as even a moderately skilled Face. The top end is only worth their cost if your GM doesn't bother to use the RAW that balances them out. :(

Cain

Mar 5 2006, 09:51 AM

Post #50

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QUOTE

You also do not have a replica of page 348 of the BBB to carry with you, because that would help. It certainly should have enlightened you to your problem you gave as an example.

Please point out to me this: where, on page 348, is the maximums for edges/flaws listed? Or the BP and rating caps on attributes? Or the racial mods? Or the skill restrictions? All these are things that are very important to the first mechanical stage of character creation.

Page 348 isn't a guide to character creation. It's not even a Cliff's Notes. It's a reference table, which is only useful if you've got the bulk of the rules already memorized. Compare this to the reference in Savage Worlds, which is damn near 100% complete, and you'll see what I mean.

QUOTE

Yes, you could weedle away the hours trying to optimize . Because it is really hard to find now because the good enough to play region is larger and the differences between optimal and not more stubtle. However just because SR4 character creation gives you lots and lots of viable options to use, it certainly doesn't force you to because there are plenty of viable and near optimal options that are just there.

The problem is that the "good enough to play" options are overwhelmed by the hyperspecialists. Just comparing a BBB mage against one of my home creations demonstrates that easily enough. I can create a one-trick pony who doesn't have any glaring weaknesses; and because of the caps, he's not that much further behind a generalist. The question isn't "What options are there", the question is: what does it encourage?

QUOTE

SR play encourage a specialists, always has.

:D

QUOTE

Such is the nature of a team environment. However SR4 character generation in truth discourages buying a Specialization and maximizing Attributes, and reduces the advantages of maximizing Skills. And it shows in the characters that come out. A strong character has a large mix of Skills ratings.

That might be true for the BBB archetypes, but not when comparing characters stat-by-stat. And in every edition of Shadowrun, the archetypes have been less an example of what the character creation rules could do, and more an optimistic view of the power level the developers wanted. At any event, there is absolutely no reason *not* to buy a specialization; for low skills, you pay less to strenghten your abilities; and in high skills, you get that extra bonus.

Besides which, the system almost forces you to have a mix of skill ratings. You cannot have two skills at 6, or three at 5. It's not just strong characters that'll have a large mix; just about every character will.

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