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> Fanning a revolver, When single shot just isn't enough
Akimbo
post Mar 3 2006, 08:41 PM
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I was stuck in a situation where I had nothing but a very cheap revolver on hand and plenty of targets that I NEEDED to take down. There was no escaping this situation other than firing a weapon. With that said, I asked if I was able to fan the revolver, thusly increasing my rate of fire. The current GM wasn't sure how to handle that situation. I'd imagine there would be an incredible hit to accuracy, but allowing a higher rate of fire. Anyone have any suggestions on handling this situation?
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Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Akimbo)
There was no escaping this situation other than firing a weapon.

That's your problem right there. :) No chance to grapple one guy as a human shield/hostage? No window to jump out of? No fast talk possible?

But as far as the rules go, a revolver is defined as Single-Shot. No "fanning," as it were. Anything beyond that is a house rule, and I ain't in your house. ;)
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ludomastro
post Mar 3 2006, 09:04 PM
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I'll take a shot at it. I am assuming that by "fanning", you mean holding the trigger down and using your off hand to actuate the hammer.

I would probbly treat it as two 3-shot bursts (assuming a 6-shooter) with double recoil.
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Lagomorph
post Mar 3 2006, 09:45 PM
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I'd probably allow it just to act as a SA weapon with -2 or 3 dice penalty.
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Brahm
post Mar 3 2006, 09:46 PM
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Watch the movie Equalibrium, my son, and you will find the answer to your dilema. ;)
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hobgoblin
post Mar 3 2006, 09:47 PM
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i would make it a semiauto with double recoil, as that is more or less what your getting when slapping a revolver around (unless your quicksilver fast).
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otomik
post Mar 3 2006, 09:48 PM
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do you think the warhawk is single action? that would definately be style over substance given that today single actions are strictly cowboy action (and non-Brokeback cowboy action before anyone asks).

honestly the average person can shoot 4 times in 1 second and revolver guy extraordinaire jerry miculek can fire 8 in one second. length of trigger pull and trigger reset are going to factor into that too, someone could be firing a 1911 or a double action revolver with a long, heavy and gritty pull.

once you factor in the initiative pass system this descrepancy becomes a bit more plausable, where a really fast trigger finger is unloading 8 shots in 3 seconds.

we also get more realistic cyclic rates on full auto weapons
Full Auto becomes 40 rounds in 3 seconds or an 800rpm cyclic rate
Supressive Fire becomes 80 rounds in 3 seconds or a 1600rpm (a little high but possible in some cases like a Mac-11 in .380ACP)
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Akimbo
post Mar 3 2006, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 3 2006, 03:59 PM)
That's your problem right there.  :)  No chance to grapple one guy as a human shield/hostage?  No window to jump out of?  No fast talk possible?

But as far as the rules go, a revolver is defined as Single-Shot.  No "fanning," as it were.  Anything beyond that is a house rule, and I ain't in your house.  ;)

A female human doesn't grapple with large, dumb trolls, or talks it out with them, and certainly doesn't try to use one as a human shield.

And you should come to my house some time. It's a nice house.

Edit: And I tested that with a friend's airsoft gun. I'm not going to attempt to fan with my S&W .38 special at home. I would look goofy at the firing range. I easily fanned getting six shots off in less than 2 seconds. I find it very easy to do...Just... firing at the hip in such a fashion is highly... innacurate.
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Azralon
post Mar 3 2006, 10:23 PM
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Ah; missing data.

So, Con (Seduction)? Negotiation (Bribery)? Running (Like Hell)?

I doubt getting an extra few bullets out of a substandard revolver is going to be much more useful in that situation. :)
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mdynna
post Mar 3 2006, 11:03 PM
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:D

I'm definitely allowing a Running (Like Hell) specialization now! Condition you must be in a situation causing your character extraordinary panic. That's awesome.
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Shrike30
post Mar 4 2006, 02:41 AM
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Fanning only works with a single-action revolver... double-actions aren't capable of it, due to how the mechanism works. While you could make a revolver in SR3 that was capable of SA fire, I'd rule that a single-action revolver was definitely SS.

I'd allow fanning to fire a 3 round wide burst as a complex action, and possibly slap a -1 on there for the fact that it's a weird way to fire a gun.
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hyzmarca
post Mar 4 2006, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (Akimbo @ Mar 3 2006, 05:20 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 3 2006, 03:59 PM)
That's your problem right there.  :)  No chance to grapple one guy as a human shield/hostage?  No window to jump out of?  No fast talk possible?

But as far as the rules go, a revolver is defined as Single-Shot.  No "fanning," as it were.  Anything beyond that is a house rule, and I ain't in your house.  ;)

A female human doesn't grapple with large, dumb trolls, or talks it out with them, and certainly doesn't try to use one as a human shield.

Score 1 for racist and sexist sterotypes.


Well, there is always Monkey Steals Peach.
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otomik
post Mar 4 2006, 03:40 AM
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look in the smartlink description, seems to indicate that all guns are electrically fired, no percussion based primers anymore, no hammers or strikers. It also seems to indicate that they all have internal locks so think about your PAN security.
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neko128
post Mar 4 2006, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (otomik)
look in the smartlink description, seems to indicate that all guns are electrically fired, no percussion based primers anymore, no hammers or strikers. It also seems to indicate that they all have internal locks so think about your PAN security.

Reading through it, I don't agree with your interpretation. It says a gun can be fired without pulling the trigger; it doesn't say it doesn't use a traditional firing pin. Kinda like the power button on most modern desktops isn't a "hard power"; it asks the computer to shut itself down.
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otomik
post Mar 4 2006, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (neko128)
Reading through it, I don't agree with your interpretation. It says a gun can be fired without pulling the trigger; it doesn't say it doesn't use a traditional firing pin. Kinda like the power button on most modern desktops isn't a "hard power"; it asks the computer to shut itself down.

hmm, that's an interesting take, electromagnet controlled sear or something. I'd get raygun in here but I seem to recall him being unimpressed with SR4.
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Kyoto Kid
post Mar 4 2006, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
Fanning only works with a single-action revolver... double-actions aren't capable of it, due to how the mechanism works.  While you could make a revolver in SR3 that was capable of SA fire, I'd rule that a single-action revolver was definitely SS.

I'd allow fanning to fire a 3 round wide burst as a complex action, and possibly slap a -1 on there for the fact that it's a weird way to fire a gun.

I'll have to run this by my GM. Being a big fan of old 20th century westerns, Kyoto Kid 4.1 would definitely be into this.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 4 2006, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (otomik)
QUOTE (neko128 @ Mar 4 2006, 04:01 AM)
Reading through it, I don't agree with your interpretation.  It says a gun can be fired without pulling the trigger; it doesn't say it doesn't use a traditional firing pin.  Kinda like the power button on most modern desktops isn't a "hard power"; it asks the computer to shut itself down.

hmm, that's an interesting take, electromagnet controlled sear or something. I'd get raygun in here but I seem to recall him being unimpressed with SR4.

i would say he is unimpressed with SR rules in general, but that may be a personal attack so ill shut up now...
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Brahm
post Mar 4 2006, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 4 2006, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE (otomik @ Mar 4 2006, 05:25 AM)
QUOTE (neko128 @ Mar 4 2006, 04:01 AM)
Reading through it, I don't agree with your interpretation.  It says a gun can be fired without pulling the trigger; it doesn't say it doesn't use a traditional firing pin.  Kinda like the power button on most modern desktops isn't a "hard power"; it asks the computer to shut itself down.

hmm, that's an interesting take, electromagnet controlled sear or something. I'd get raygun in here but I seem to recall him being unimpressed with SR4.

i would say he is unimpressed with SR rules in general, but that may be a personal attack so ill shut up now...

I think it is a fairly accurate assessment that he wouldn't disagree with that he is unsatisfied with the canon SR3 firearms rules. :)

However last I saw he was mostly unaware of SR4 rules. Making his opinion on things in SR4 rather nebulous. :)
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eidolon
post Mar 4 2006, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (otomik)
look in the smartlink description, seems to indicate that all guns are electrically fired, no percussion based primers anymore, no hammers or strikers. It also seems to indicate that they all have internal locks so think about your PAN security.

This might be true, but it leads to a new problem.

If all weapons are fired via microswitch, then there shouldn't be a weapon out there that can only be fired SS. Can you see any reason that you would only be able to click a mouse one time in three seconds?

Fact is, the firing modes, while usually at least moderately following reality, are a game mechanic. "Caseless ammo fired via switching" is fluff. It sounds cool as hell, but the game mechanics certainly don't take it into account.
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Eryk the Red
post Mar 4 2006, 09:50 PM
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I'm by no means an expert on firearms, but I think the problem here is even simpler than the issue of SR guns being electronic in nature. The fact is, there's no reason a revolver should be single shot. A modern revolver (as in, year 2006 modern) would be fairly accurately described as semi-automatic. You don't pull back the hammer manually on a modern revolver. That's just what we think about from watching cowboy movies. The action of pulling the trigger does everything. There is no reason at all that, by Shadowrun rules, revolvers shouldn't be treated as semi-auto. If you wanted to balance it or give it some extra flavor, you might treat the recoil as though the revolver is a heavy weapon (double the recoil penalty if it's not compensated), just to represent how the revolver kicks harder than most pistols.
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Krotiez
post Mar 5 2006, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
I'm by no means an expert on firearms, but I think the problem here is even simpler than the issue of SR guns being electronic in nature. The fact is, there's no reason a revolver should be single shot. A modern revolver (as in, year 2006 modern) would be fairly accurately described as semi-automatic. You don't pull back the hammer manually on a modern revolver. That's just what we think about from watching cowboy movies. The action of pulling the trigger does everything. There is no reason at all that, by Shadowrun rules, revolvers shouldn't be treated as semi-auto. If you wanted to balance it or give it some extra flavor, you might treat the recoil as though the revolver is a heavy weapon (double the recoil penalty if it's not compensated), just to represent how the revolver kicks harder than most pistols.

It depends if the revolver in question is single action or double action.

A single action revolver requires the hammer to be manually cocked every time it's fired. Please note that cocking the hammer also rotates the cylinder.

A double action revolver both cocks the hammer and releases it with a pull the trigger. They can also be fired single action style. However, on the flip side pulling the trigger to do both also makes for a long, heavy trigger pull.

There are also some special ducks called DAO (Double Action Only) revolvers that may actually have the hammer in the revolver's frame. They are, naturally, only able to be fired double action style.

Another special duck is the automatic revolver which uses the recoil from shooting to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder.

Please note that there also single action semi-automatic pistols with require the hammer to be cocked before the first shot.

As for the original post...well...if you can't find some way to evade those trolls I think you're SOL.
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Shrike30
post Mar 5 2006, 12:24 PM
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SR3 had more than 1 revolver in it, after Cannon Companion came out, and it was a SA piece. I'd always imagined that the SS rate of fire on the Warhawk was a combination of it being a single-action piece, and having enormous recoil. Of course, it doesn't actually have (in system) enormous recoil, but everyone just kind of assumed it actually did.
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weblife
post Mar 5 2006, 03:28 PM
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Problem solved if you have 3 passes, ambidexterity and 2 Warhawks.

I might have missed it, but it seems its also allowed to use smartlink with 2 weapons now.

So, simple action 1, fire Warhawk 1, second simple action, fire Warhawk 2. No dicesplitting, no penalties.

Second pass, repeat.

Third pass, guess. :)

Third combat round, 1st pass spent reloading, then opening up again.

Not sure it'd be the best choice as a weapon though... SMG's can match the lethality easy enough. Same with concealability. Might be able to bring a Warhawk places other weapons would be stopped though.
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Akimbo
post Mar 5 2006, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Score 1 for racist and sexist sterotypes.

I'm a girl. A girl saying she is incompetant is not really sexist I'm afraid. :(

And I did happen to get out of that situation on my own. I was just overwhelmed and barely survived. I tried running, talking, hiding, and crying. In the end, the firearm saved my life. Go figure.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 5 2006, 05:56 PM
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well color me interested :P
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