Binding Spirits? |
Binding Spirits? |
Mar 4 2006, 04:30 AM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 10-January 06 Member No.: 8,147 |
I'm in the middle of a game right now and we are having a rules debate, so I would really appreciate a quick answer. A shaman summons a spirit and gets four net hits, so the spirit owes four unbound services. Then the shaman binds the spirit and gets a net hits, so the spirit owes a single bound service. Do those unbound services become bound services, or must they be used before sunrise/sunset before they're wasted?
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Mar 4 2006, 04:50 AM
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#2
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
wouldn't count for binding. only the net hits rolled on the binding test count for binding. Personally I'd say you're being generous for giving him the previous successes, but that's just me. It doesn't really say in the book either way.
The reason they don't stack is that the spirit rolls more dice and has heavier drain for binding, so they shouldn't get what would amount to free, or at least easier successes. Hope 20 minutes wasn't too much wait time |
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Mar 4 2006, 05:03 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 10-January 06 Member No.: 8,147 |
sincerest thanks!!!
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Mar 4 2006, 05:04 AM
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#4
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
welcome. Give my apologies to the guy that lost 4 services though.
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Mar 4 2006, 08:46 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually... it does say, and you just screwed a player bad. The first net hit on the binding test does not even give a service - it merely converts the spirit to being a bound spirit. Only additional net hits after the first grant hits. That's on page 180:
-Frank |
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Mar 4 2006, 08:57 AM
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#6
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I disagree. I states that under binding. No where in the book does it state the summoning services previous to binding carry over in to the binding test. Like I mentioned before, the rolls for that are much easier. If you want to allow those services, then say that they only count in the 8 hour time limit. The section on 180 you quoted is under 'binding'. "at the end of the ritual"... meaning that it's a seperate test (obviosuly because it's another roll with way more dice and drain).
Count the services for bound and unbound services seperately if you like. No where does it state that they carry over. Nowhere does it state that they do not either honestly, so IMO it's up to GM interpretation. |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:00 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
<The magician requires one net hit to bind the spirit. Additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services owed.>
If they didn't carry over, what exactly are we adding to? If we go the way you say, then if the Mage got only one success he'd have a bound spirit with 0 Services, which is no spirit. |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:02 AM
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#8
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
the way I understand it at least, example:
mage rolls summoning test, say he gets 7 successes spirit being bound rolls 5 mage has one service. . First net hit makes it a bound spirit, second net hit is the first bound service that the spirit owes. |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:11 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
This is assuming that there are two different types of Services. As far as I read there are Services, both unbound and bound spirits can use them, bound spirits just happen to be able to do more with the services.
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Mar 4 2006, 09:17 AM
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#10
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
pg 179:Spirit Services
Unbound Spirit Services Combat Continual use of a power Perform Physical Task Remote Service Bound Spirit Services Any Unbound Spirit Service Aid Sorcery AAid Study Loaned Service Spell Binding Spell Sustaining Bound spirits have more types of services available as well, so there is more that you would be able to do with the services of a bound spirit as opposed to an unbound. So why would the unbound summoning that is easier to do, and gives less drain, all of a sudden give it more types of services? |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:18 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 10-January 06 Member No.: 8,147 |
Sorry, that was a typo. The shaman got two net hits, so the spirit owes one bound service.
I'm going to rule that the spirit owes four unbound services, which expire at sunset, and one bound service. It seems fairest that way. |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:23 AM
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#12
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
sounds fair. The rules could be a little more clear. I'm suprised this never came up in playtesting. Of course, never really came up in my games either, so I guess I can't really blame them. Anyone know if 'ShadowFAQ' is answering 4th edition questions yet?
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Mar 4 2006, 09:25 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
As far as I see it, its like being in front of a vending machine. You have two types of vending machines, Bound and Unbound. The Bound Vending Machine costs a little more (An extra drain step, time, materials) but has an asortment of snacks/drinks. The unbound vending machine costs only a little, but has very few things to choose from. Now aside from that, I would suggest to your shaman to simply skip binding. |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:34 AM
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#14
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
right, so if you put your money into one machine , you get only the snack/service of that type. So in the example (original) the summoner has 4 services that he has to use in 8 hours of the unbound type, and one service that he can use any time under the bound spirit category.
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Mar 4 2006, 09:39 AM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I certainly wouldn't even consider binding if people were seriously not going to allow me to have any services if I got one net hit. That's seriously crazy talk, and I can easily see why your game was paralyzed by argument.
At no time did the designers intend for people to make a "bound spirit" that had no available services. And any interpretation that leads to such obvious insanity should be dropped immediately. There is no such thing as a "Bound Service", there are only "Bound Spirit Services" - the services that a Bound Spirit can be asked to perform. Each spirit just has a number of services that it owes, then if it is Unbound it can be asked to perform any of the services described under "Spirit Services", and if it Bound it can do all that plus anything listed under "Bound Spirit Services". Seriously, it's just that simple. And it isn't particularly unfair (excepting that Binding is so drain and yen intensive that it's still a kind of raw deal). -Frank |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:48 AM
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#16
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
then what they intended isn't very clear. It is possible to bind a spirit, with no successes, as written at least. In that case, you would have to do a rebinding , where all the successes (net) would count for services. If I'm wrong, cool , more services for all to go around, but as written, that's what it says. They could certainly be more specific. Hence why I was asking if ShadowFAQ is answering 4th edition questions, or if that's been addressed in the second print run, since my book is from the first run.
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Mar 4 2006, 09:50 AM
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#17
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,985 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
You cannot re-summon an unbound spirit, so what's the big deal here?
Binding is difficult, dangerous and costly, and requires an extra skill. Isn't that enough? You just start out with a number of services, and if you are better at summoning, the foundation for binding pretty much, then you will have some advantage with the bound spirit as well. And yeah, I also think (no, I'm sure) that you keep the services with that first net hit on the Binding Test, and that they do not expire. The spirit isn't unbound anymore, so why should there be unbound services floating around? There are no unbound and bound services to begin with, there are just services and unbound/bound spirits. Bound spirits can be used for more tasks with the services they owe, and the services do not expire, that's why you bind them, after all. "The services of a bound spirit do not expire..." Not the bound services, just the services. Bye Thanee |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:52 AM
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#18
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,985 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Nope. "The magician requires one net hit to bind the spirit." That's what it says quite unambiguously. :) Bye Thanee |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:56 AM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah. They also fail to mention whether spirits transform into cheesecake on Tuesdays.
No it isn't. To bind a spirit, it has to be under your pwer with at least one outstanding service. When it becomes bound it therefore still has at least one service. The rules never say that the old services are converted to Bound Services because there's no such thing. There are services. There are Unbound Spirits and there are Bound Spirits. There are services that can only be performed by Bound spirits. That's it. You are making a mountain out of an imaginary molehill. There is no confusion in the text, as the question you want addressed is not even a possible Shadowrun question. You can't even make an FAQ answer out of that because it references game terms that exist only in your mind. -Frank |
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Mar 4 2006, 09:57 AM
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#20
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
sorry ,let me rephrase. It is possible to bind a spirit, as written , get only one net success, and have no services. It does not state that the services from the initial summoning carry over.
As I said before, it also doesn't state that they do not, so it's a writer mistake either way. But , at least from my point of view, as written, that's how it works. If they correct it and it lets you keep the earlier successes, cool, my street mage could use a few more services from his elementals. But that's not what it says. |
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Mar 4 2006, 10:01 AM
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#21
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,985 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
No extra services. That's why "additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services the spirit owes" on the Binding Test. It would be completely pointless to mention this, if the additional net hits would not add to the services the spirit owed before it was bound, which clearly implies, that these services are retained and can now be used for bound spirit tasks as well and do not expire. Rebinding has its own text for this, it only applies for the process of transforming an unbound spirit to a bound spirit, and there is only one thing, that this can mean. You have a spirit. The spirit owes you services. The spirit is unbound. Now you bind the spirit. It is now a bound spirit. It still owes you services. Bye Thanee |
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Mar 4 2006, 10:05 AM
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#22
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
ok, I'll do it your way. But seriosuly Frank, chill man. Sorry if I aggravated you that much.
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Mar 17 2006, 05:42 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329 |
Yeah, adding services is the one that makes more sense. You go out of your way, use up expensive materials, why do that to get -fewer- services? Plus there's the question of what a Bound Spirit owing no services would do. Tell you to get bent? Bargain for something?
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