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> Full-body cyber replacement, Or, CyberZombie-Lite
neko128
post Mar 4 2006, 11:23 PM
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My search-fu is probably quite weak, but I didn't see anything on this topic. Cyber-limbs are 1 essence; cyber-torsos, 1.5; skulls, 0.75. Make the torso Alphaware, so that the total essence cost is only 5.5 total, and it costs 110,000 nuyen (for obvious versions of them all). Now, you'll look like an insane metal freak, and even looking at a high-security zone too hard will have Lone Star all over you... But it seems to be a lot of advantages for few disadvantages. Now, if you assume you don't want to improve the stats on your cyber-skull along with everything else, it costs a total of (200+250+250)*6 = 4,200 Nuyen per full one point stat increase (*6 because I'm counting the torso twice; alphaware and all that jazz). You can give a total of +3 to all your stats (body only for the skull, because of capacity) to level 6, and it would cost a grand total of 110,000 + 12,600 + 600 (the skull's body) = 123,200... And you'd still have capacity left for other toys, like armor on the limbs and a cybergun.

The one snag you hit for an actual starting character is availability on the skull (16), but ignore that small glitch; it's pretty cheap anyway.

The BP cost for 123,200 would be 25. The BP cost for the equivalent stats would be 195, not even counting the multiple-maxed-stats problem.

That seems... Excessively powerful. Am I missing something in here? If you don't mind the essence cost, couldn't you just leave most of your physical stats at 1 and abuse this pretty horribly?
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SL James
post Mar 4 2006, 11:32 PM
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Yes.
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Jaid
post Mar 4 2006, 11:43 PM
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of course, this also requires that you don't waste BP on race, so be a human (none of your precious bonus is lost... you still have your edge ;) )

not to mention the stuff you *can't* get because of this. such as all bioware by the RAW, if i'm not mistaken. and such as wired reflexes. (which, IMO, is silly, but i believe is the way the rules are set up currently).

but other than those minor pesky problems, sure, go ahead. you'll be really hard to kill, and can dump your attributes.

so i wouldn't go so far as to say *no* drawbacks. with 0.5 essence left, you're obviously not gonna be awakened, but i guess that was assumed to begin with. that puts you as a razorguy or decker, and you won't be able to get any cyber that doesn't have a capacity rating iirc. considering some of those pieces of cyber, i'd say that's at least a bit of a drawback.
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neko128
post Mar 4 2006, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
of course, this also requires that you don't waste BP on race, so be a human (none of your precious bonus is lost... you still have your edge ;) )

not to mention the stuff you *can't* get because of this. such as all bioware by the RAW, if i'm not mistaken. and such as wired reflexes. (which, IMO, is silly, but i believe is the way the rules are set up currently).

but other than those minor pesky problems, sure, go ahead. you'll be really hard to kill, and can dump your attributes.

so i wouldn't go so far as to say *no* drawbacks. with 0.5 essence left, you're obviously not gonna be awakened, but i guess that was assumed to begin with. that puts you as a razorguy or decker, and you won't be able to get any cyber that doesn't have a capacity rating iirc. considering some of those pieces of cyber, i'd say that's at least a bit of a drawback.

Hmmm... I missed the "can't hold cyberware that costs essence" clause. You're right; that IS a huge drawback.

However, it also says that both torsos and skulls are "shells", not actual limbs, so you can argue that wired reflexes, cybereyes, cyberears, etcetera are legal because they're in the meat underneath and not in the actual limb. I'd have to think about which side of that one I'd come down on, but the argument can certainly be made. :-P
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Thanee
post Mar 5 2006, 12:00 AM
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Sure, you can get them... but the essence cost still affects you.

Alphaware won't suffice then. ;)

I really don't see this as a big problem. If you replace your full body and use up almost all your Essence, by all means, you should have some benefit from that.

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SL James
post Mar 5 2006, 12:00 AM
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So much for Cyberzombies.

And yet in SR3 you couldn't get a essence cost reduction for being a cybermonster despite being 80% metal, now you just can't. Jesus...
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Guest_MK Ultra_*
post Mar 5 2006, 12:06 AM
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I am quiet sure, that it was intended, that characters with cybertorso/skull can have wirred reflexes/headware too (otherwise many cyberzombie npc´s from previous editions canon would not work anymore)! The problem is, you´ve got to pay the essence cost for these, as opposed to ware, that has a capacity rating and can thus be implanted into a cyberlimb without aditionel essenz loss. So feel free burn your fantastic remaining 0.5 Essence on wirred reflexes (well, synaptic accellerator, maybe)!
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neko128
post Mar 5 2006, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
So much for Cyberzombies.

And yet in SR3 you couldn't get a essence cost reduction for being a cybermonster despite being 80% metal, now you just can't. Jesus...

Well, I'm sure at some point they'll re-institute the rules for Cyberzombies, better than ever, new and improved. I mean, they existed in 2060; the rituals for trapping souls in bodies are probably more advanced in 2070, and cyberware's certainly cheaper, making them a much more economical proposition!
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Thanee
post Mar 5 2006, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
...despite being 80% metal...

I don't think this is the right idea.

Essence loss is not just how much of your body gets replaced. It's a lot more than that. I see it more like how it affects your very being.

Also, the more drastic implants often involve tinkering with the neural structure (i.e. Wired Reflexes). Replacing your limbs does not really make a difference there and the torso is mostly just an armored shell.

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Thanee
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SL James
post Mar 5 2006, 12:33 AM
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Sure, and that would be fine if Wired Reflexes was as neurally invasive as a VCR (which had the same costs despite being confined to the brain), but it isn't (or at least, couldn't be and yet was still a body-wide modification of the entire neural structure). Just asking for some consistency, which is like asking Jesus to come down to Earth and tell me how to take over Microsoft.

Of course, to be perfectly frank CZs are pretty much irrelevant in SR4 under the current rules unless they become "special" through the cybermancy process to cram more enhancements than are currently allowed under the (Attr * 1.5) rule.
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Guest_MK Ultra_*
post Mar 5 2006, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
Sure, and that would be fine if Wired Reflexes was as neurally invasive as a VCR (which had the same costs despite being confined to the brain), but it isn't (or at least, couldn't be and yet was still a body-wide modification of the entire neural structure). Just asking for some consistency, which is like asking Jesus to come down to Earth and tell me how to take over Microsoft.

You know, the magical word (in both chases), which we all hate to hear (in bothe chases), since consistency (or being told how to take over Microsoft by Jesus decended from above) and it are not mutually exclusive, is gamebalance.

QUOTE

Of course, to be perfectly frank CZs are pretty much irrelevant in SR4 under the current rules unless they become "special" through the cybermancy process to cram more enhancements than are currently allowed under the (Attr * 1.5) rule.


Well, I think maxing out everything would still have its merits. ;)
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Johnnycache
post Mar 5 2006, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
Sure, and that would be fine if Wired Reflexes was as neurally invasive as a VCR (which had the same costs despite being confined to the brain), but it isn't (or at least, couldn't be and yet was still a body-wide modification of the entire neural structure). Just asking for some consistency, which is like asking Jesus to come down to Earth and tell me how to take over Microsoft.

Of course, to be perfectly frank CZs are pretty much irrelevant in SR4 under the current rules unless they become "special" through the cybermancy process to cram more enhancements than are currently allowed under the (Attr * 1.5) rule.

Cyberbody+initiative and full ware on multiple senses and a ton of headware seems like a neat idea.

The more holistic bioware approach is definately the way to go for most though.
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hyzmarca
post Mar 5 2006, 03:28 AM
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Don't forget that your physical stats will suck if you do this. A cyberlimb can only old so many physial stat increases and you'll have to buy stats for every part seperatly.

Also, leaving Body at 1 won't work well because you'll remain vulnerable to pathogens and toxins.
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Glyph
post Mar 5 2006, 08:29 AM
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The whole-body replacement thingie only really works after char-gen, where you can use deltaware (to have enough essense for other things, like reflex enhancements), and where you don't have the starting Availability restrictions limiting the enhancements that you can buy.

Cyber limbs are much more effective and reasonably priced now, though, compared to SR3.
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Zolhex
post Mar 5 2006, 08:56 AM
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QUOTE (MK Ultra)
I am quiet sure, that it was intended, that characters with cybertorso/skull can have wirred reflexes/headware too (otherwise many cyberzombie npc´s from previous editions canon would not work anymore)!

I agree with glyph.

If this is something your looking to do as a player character your gonna want to do it in game with deltaware.

Then the 6.25 essance cost becomes 3.125 leaveing lots of room for things like wired 3.

Even beter synaptic accellerator 3 less essance 1.5 divided by 2 cause you only pay for half the cost of bio seeing as it is less than your cyber cost.

Now the scary thought is this if you pay only half the cost of the lower can you get 3.2 in bio then pay half of the delta cyber?

The essance cost for delta cyber is 3.125 NOT the 6.25 so that would make the cyber cost 1.5625.

That gives you cyber and bio with a total essance loss of 4.7625 leaving you an essance of 1.2375 and a full cyber bod, high stats, and lots of mods or a top notch killing machine that is still human.

Also 3.2 or heck 4.2 (which still leaves you .2375 essance) in bio can get you really jacked up.

Hehe it slices it dices it's the all new ginsu human quesinart buy yours today for the low low price of (i'm guessing here) 5.5 million nuyen (or more)!
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Taki
post Mar 5 2006, 11:01 AM
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Next logical step :

stop complexity, don't cut the arms, the legs, the torso and so on ...
just build a whole robotic body, and transplant the brain to it, and may be a few organs (heart, lung, nerves and some other stuff in the torso)

Just ADD essence to a mechanism by adding life in it (strange feeling).
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Shrike30
post Mar 5 2006, 12:15 PM
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I houseruled that players who wanted to go cyborg (all limbs, torso, skull, eyes, ears) paid standard-grade costs for their cyberwear, but got it upgraded to beta for free. However, they bought their physical attributes at normal cost (and then we upgraded, again for free, the cyborg body with the addons required to have those stats). Haven't had anyone do it yet, but who knows... we might.

If i feel like really offering it up to 'em, i might just say the upgrade is to delta, not beta. We'll see.
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fistandantilus4....
post Mar 5 2006, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Taki)
Next logical step :

stop complexity, don't cut the arms, the legs, the torso and so on ...
just build a whole robotic body, and transplant the brain to it, and may be a few organs (heart, lung, nerves and some other stuff in the torso)

Just ADD essence to a mechanism by adding life in it (strange feeling).

"the NEW Mitsuhama Carciture! Get your today!"
"Now with great new digestive options!"
"optional spleen, liver, and optical disc changer!"

Really, at that point, you'd might as well just consider them rigging an anthroform. I had a dwarf character that rigged up an anthroform to look lke a troll. Got it a very detailed mask, used theatrical make up, long coat, big shot gun, the works. It was fun for a while, but it mostly just weirded folks out.
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TinkerGnome
post Mar 5 2006, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (Taki)
just build a whole robotic body, and transplant the brain to it, and may be a few organs (heart, lung, nerves and some other stuff in the torso) 
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Ka_ge2020
post Mar 5 2006, 03:42 PM
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I was actually just thinking about the Full 'borg conversions from Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.. For some reason I rather liked them, more so when coupled with the whole 'ghost comp' idea. Erm, not much more to say about that, though perhaps definitely something to consider ala the MitS information.

Regards.

Ka_ge
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hyzmarca
post Mar 5 2006, 04:45 PM
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It has been attempted before using the work of Dr. Halberstam and the nuances of the essence rules.

You see, having things cut off doesn't cost essence, so having one's brain shvoed into a jar is a very essence-friendly process despite what common sense suggests. Add an implanted Datajack (and a VCR in SR3) and connect the jar to a specially made drone and away you go. Drones can be stronger and faster than cyberlimbs can be and you only need one weapon skill. With the direct connection it is impossible to hack the drone. It is an inellegant but perfectly munchy solution.
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TinkerGnome
post Mar 5 2006, 05:06 PM
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When the rules for them appear, it'd be easier just to get a free sprite to inhabit one. I mean, saves you all the cutting.
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