Ares Predator IV and Gas-vent Systems

Ares Predator IV and Gas-vent Systems, Can they go together?

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Thyme Lost

Mar 7 2006, 10:46 AM

Post #1

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The Ares Predator IV is a Heavy Pistol.
Under Gas-Vent System on page 311, it says that:

QUOTE

Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles, and machine guns.

The Ares Predator isn't a machine pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles, or machine guns, so can it not have a Gas-Vent System?

Or am I over thinking this.

Gas-vent systems go on the barrel mount.
A Heavy Pistol has a barrel mount.

Is that good enough logic to say that the Ares Predator IV can have a Gas-Vent System?

Thyme

Bullet Raven View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 10:55 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 27-April 05 From: Summoning a spirit of the land Member No.: 7,362	Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction ;) or something :P So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect.

Thyme Lost

Mar 7 2006, 11:05 AM

Post #3

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QUOTE (Bullet Raven)

Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction ;) or something :P

So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect.

So anyway to cancel the recoil of shooting the Predator multiple times?
One of the reasons I ask, is the thought of dual wielding Predators.
With a simple action, you can shoot both guns, you just have to spilt your dice pool.
With two simple actions, you can shoot 4 times.

I was trying to see if there was a way to not have to worry about recoil with dual wielding Predators.

Thyme...

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 11:11 AM Post #4
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Now now Bullet Raven, don't try using RL logic to excuse handguns not getting gas vents, it won't work. I was going to say I wouldn't know what the actual rules about this are since there are no SR4's in Finnish stores yet, but it seems a few have finally landed in Helsinki.

Bullet Raven View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 11:12 AM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 27-April 05 From: Summoning a spirit of the land Member No.: 7,362	oh.... I see :) No, not really... there aren't any suitable accessories and like you say, pistols can't have gas vent. Seems pretty clear in the writeup. Sorry dude, you're going to have to take the recoil :P It's only -1 on the second shot for each gun though, so in the grand scheme of things you're not at a huge loss (I'm aware you'll be splitting your pool) From reading the rules though, does it become -2 on each gun -1 for it's own and -1 for the other weapon's recoil on the second shots? HMMMMM!!!!

Bullet Raven

Mar 7 2006, 11:13 AM

Post #6

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 7 2006, 11:11 AM)

Now now Bullet Raven, don't try using RL logic to excuse handguns not getting gas vents, it won't work.

I was going to say I wouldn't know what the actual rules about this are since there are no SR4's in Finnish stores yet, but it seems a few have finally landed in Helsinki.

woah, how cool.

I confess I know nearly nothing about weapons in general so I wasn't aware it was even a real system ;)

Edit: and in that case, I would ask your GM, showing evidence that it exists for the Glock ;)

reconsweden

Mar 7 2006, 11:19 AM

Post #7

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QUOTE (Bullet Raven @ Mar 7 2006, 10:55 AM)

Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction ;) or something :P

So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect.

No.

A gas vent/ported barrel bleeds off gas to make the recoil more manageable.

Check out this vid of a IPSC open division racegun that has a "gas vent":
http://www.ericgrauffel.com/video/video_el...elpresident.htm

A pistol is as low ROF as any semi-auto weapon: As fast as you can pull the trigger.

IRL a gas vent/ported barrel makes even the first shot more accurate because of the more manageable recoil.
SR doesn´t have much to do with reality, the fact that you don´t need subsonic ammo for suppressors kind of sets the bar.

Thyme Lost

Mar 7 2006, 11:44 AM

Post #8

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QUOTE (Bullet Raven)

oh.... I see :)

No, not really... there aren't any suitable accessories and like you say, pistols can't have gas vent. Seems pretty clear in the writeup.

Sorry dude, you're going to have to take the recoil :P It's only -1 on the second shot for each gun though, so in the grand scheme of things you're not at a huge loss (I'm aware you'll be splitting your pool)

From reading the rules though, does it become -2 on each gun -1 for it's own and -1 for the other weapon's recoil on the second shots?

HMMMMM!!!!

I figured that each shoot would give a -1.

First Shoot First Gun: No Recoil
First Shoot Second Gun: -1
Second Shoot First Gun: -2
Second Shoot Second Gun: -3

That is the way I read it, I could be wrong.

Page 142

QUOTE

Recoil
Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action
Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds
leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second
shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only.

QUOTE

Semi -Automatic Mode
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in
the same Action Phase. Each shot requires a Simple Action and a
separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the second shot,
if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier.
Recoil compensation can cancel out this modifier.

Of Course the Character I was making is a Gun Bunny Adept.
Magic Rating 6.
High Agility (One under Max for Race), Max Pistol with Spec, Improved Reflexes, Improved Ability and High Edge.

Thyme Lost

Mar 7 2006, 11:47 AM

Post #9

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QUOTE (Bullet Raven)

Edit: and in that case, I would ask your GM, showing evidence that it exists for the Glock ;)

I am the GM. :D
Or I will be.

I know that when the other Shadowrun GM ran Second Ed SR, one of the players was dual wielding pistols and taken 4 shoots per Init Phase.

Thyme....

tisoz View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 11:50 AM Post #10
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	SR used to have several ways to reduce pistol recoil that are as yet unavailable in SR4. Until then, consider dual wielding machine pistols or SMGs with appropriate recoil comp.

Thanee

Mar 7 2006, 11:52 AM

Post #11

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QUOTE (Thyme Lost @ Mar 7 2006, 12:44 PM)

I figured that each shoot would give a -1.

First Shoot First Gun: No Recoil
First Shoot Second Gun: -1
Second Shoot First Gun: -2
Second Shoot Second Gun: -3

When using two firearms at the same time (like two pistols here), you add up the recoil for both and apply it to each of them, but you do track recoil seperately.

First Initiative Pass:

First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.

Second Initiative Pass:

First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.

(...)

Bye
Thanee

Thyme Lost

Mar 7 2006, 12:01 PM

Post #12

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QUOTE (Page 141/142)

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Two-gun attacks also negate any dice
pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any
uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also
apply to the other weapon.

The recoil of one gun adds to the recoil on the other.

Thyme...

Edit: Nevermind, I miss read your post....

This post has been edited by Thyme Lost: Mar 7 2006, 12:04 PM

Bullet Raven

Mar 7 2006, 01:01 PM

Post #13

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QUOTE (Thanee)

QUOTE (Thyme Lost @ Mar 7 2006, 12:44 PM)

I figured that each shoot would give a -1.

First Shoot First Gun: No Recoil
First Shoot Second Gun: -1
Second Shoot First Gun: -2
Second Shoot Second Gun: -3

When using two firearms at the same time (like two pistols here), you add up the recoil for both and apply it to each of them, but you do track recoil seperately.

First Initiative Pass:

First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.

Second Initiative Pass:

First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.

(...)

Bye
Thanee

That's how I thought it worked :)

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 08:29 PM Post #14
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	They seem to want venting to be something that's only really used with Automatics, now. Sad, because I've got a player who could really go for a gas vent on his CMDT. Venting for your handgun used to be sort of the default choice, unless you wanted a suppressor. Now I wonder how many of mine will eventually end up going suppressed all the time, since there's really no other options and conceal mods don't exist for accessories anymore.

Akimbo View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844	If you're really concerned about recoil (And you shouldn't with a Predator IV), ask your GM if you can have a custom grip or an under barrel weight on your Predators.

yesman View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:07 AM Post #16
Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758	The Hamerelli 620S comes with an internal Gas Vent.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:12 AM Post #17
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Yes, but internally-mounted systems on weapons are often-times not consistent with what you could mount using the rules on a "blank" gun. The most obvious example would be the Ingram Smartgun, which has both a Gas Vent II and a Sound Suppressor (despite the fact that no other gun would allow you to do this unless it had at least one of those systems installed already).

emo samurai View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:57 AM Post #18
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Does gas venting in RL decrease power?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 01:08 AM Post #19
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	As a rule, not at all. The gas is vented at the muzzle or very close to it, so the muzzle velocity is close enough to the original to make no difference. The kind of vents you see on the compensated Glocks might reduce muzzle velocity slightly (25fps? 50fps?) since they let some of the propellant gases escape well before the muzzle, but I've never seen any figures on that.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 01:47 AM Post #20
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Does it change how much recoil's compensated if the vent's nearer the muzzle? Also, the vented pistol's said to be for beginners. Does that mean there's somehow a drawback to using it over the normal Glock?

Austere Emancipa...

Mar 8 2006, 02:03 AM

Post #21

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

Does it change how much recoil's compensated if the vent's nearer the muzzle?

No. That's just a design question. Glock handguns do not have barrels that protrude out of the slide, and the ports cannot be right at the front of the slide (because the front sight is there, for one thing).

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Also, the vented pistol's said to be for beginners. Does that mean there's somehow a drawback to using it over the normal Glock?

Most gas venting recoil reduction systems increase muzzle blast and noise (for the shooter). Apparently compensated Glocks are also a bit less reliable than uncompensated ones, because like most pistols they are recoil operated.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 02:32 AM Post #22
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	As a house rule we allow players to have added anti recoil from either a weight mod or gas vent mod of -1. But we do our recoil differentlly for our house rules so this may not help you any.

Egon View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 02:41 AM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860	in SR3 customs grips gave +1 recoil comp to pistols. I wouldn't see any problem having the same in SR4. I would be very surprised if this was not in the SR4 cannon compainion.

Hasaku

Mar 8 2006, 03:22 AM

Post #24

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Does it change how much recoil's compensated if the vent's nearer the muzzle?

No. That's just a design question. Glock handguns do not have barrels that protrude out of the slide, and the ports cannot be right at the front of the slide (because the front sight is there, for one thing).

If one wanted to be pedantic, one could claim that vents nearer the muzzle have better leverage for countering barrel climb, since they're farther from the fulcrum (your grip). Still, the difference between a vent as close to the muzzle as possible and one as far from the muzzle as possible without killing muzzle velocity would be negligible.

Thyme Lost View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 04:05 AM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 27-February 06 From: Lost in Time Member No.: 8,312	This may be a odd question, but in SR2 wasn't there away to reduce recoil by having a large strength total? Thyme...

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