 Damage Compensators/Pain Resistance, What wound penalties apply? |
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 Mar 8 2006, 10:18 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
Hi there,
Once you cross your Damange/Pain Resistance level, do you incur all the prior penalties or just penalties based on the number of boxes past the threshold. For example: Pain Resistance 4, I suffer no wound modifiers up to 4 boxes. After that, would a 5th box give me a -1 (5 wounds total) or would this be the starting point for considering wound modifiers (1 wound past my resistance)? If anyone has a page reference, that'd would be great. Thanks, GTT |
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Mar 8 2006, 10:22 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
My understanding of the way that it works is that it gives you a certain number of "free" boxes before you even start counting towards penalties.
So, with your example of having 4 points of Pain Resistance: A normal char with 5 boxes of damage would have -1, and if he were to bump up to 6 points of damage would have -2 (because you get -1 for every 3 full boxes of damage you've taken). With 4 points of pain resistance, he functions as if he's taken 5-4 points of damage, or 1 point. That's not enough to get a penalty. The bump to 6 means he functions as if he has 2 points, also not a penalty. The only time this guy even starts taking mods is at 7 points of damage, which is where he picks up his first -1... the second will be at 10 points. This modifier is applied seperately to both damage tracks, meaning your character could be rolling around with 6 points of physical and 6 points of stun, and with pain resistance 4, he'd have no modifiers, yet. |
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Mar 8 2006, 11:57 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
In SR3, you'd get a flood of penalties once you cross the Pain Resistance threshold (from what I recall) but this is never spelled out directly in SR4 from what I remember reading.
Thanks for your insight. |
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Mar 9 2006, 01:26 AM
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#4
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Are you absolutely certain about that? The book just says "for every three boxes", not for every 3 full boxes, so I wasn't sure. However, the character sheet has wound penalties starting from the very first box. I can't really tell which one it's supposed to be. |
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Mar 9 2006, 01:29 AM
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#5
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
The character sheet makes it pretty clear that "for every three boxes" means round up, not down.
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Mar 9 2006, 08:36 AM
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#6
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
You don't get modifiers for the first box of damage you take, that would be crazy.
Pain resistance lets you ignore damage boxes when calculating penalties. I find it easiest to count backwards (rating) steps from the last box the character took. The box you land on tells you what penalty you have. |
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Mar 9 2006, 03:05 PM
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#7
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
No crazier than every other edition of Shadowrun.
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Mar 9 2006, 05:27 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
It would be a lot crazier given the change in how damage occurs. It is a -1 die penalty for every full 3 boxes.
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Mar 9 2006, 05:32 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
That's how it used to work (and because of that SR4 fooled me initially). Take a Light (1 box), and you were at a penalty of 1 (+1 TN) back in the day. Used to: 0 boxes: +0 TN 1,2 boxes: +1 TN 3,4,5 boxes: +2 TN 6,7,8,9 boxes: +3 TN 10 boxes: unconscious Nowadays it's: 0,1,2 boxes: -0 dice 3,4,5 boxes: -1 dice 6,7,8 boxes: -2 dice 9,10,11 boxes: -3 dice etc. until you're unconscious |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:33 PM
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#10
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
The penalty for SR3 was far more severe in any case except for extremely small dice pools. In SR4, losing one die means you lose 0.3 successes. In SR3, you could lose 1/3 of all of your successes by raising the TN by 1.
Target number modifiers affect large pools much more than dice pool modifiers. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:52 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
So any concensus about my initial question?
Do you reconcile wound penalties by counting wounds beyond the Pain Resistance, or once the limit is reached, count all boxes of damage? |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:55 PM
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#12
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
On that issue, I think you would count wounds beyond the pain resistance. i.e. once you're really, really wounded, the pain resistance is still helping.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:05 PM
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#13
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Count dice penalties as if having "actual damage - damage resistance" boxes of damage.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:10 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I think we're looking at another case of bad editing. It looks like the Pain Resistance power was written up asynchronously from the damage penalties rules. Either that or their example is misleading.
From this I read that if I have X boxes of damage and Y levels of Pain Resistance, then I calculate my damage penalties as if I had (X-Y) boxes of damage. Straightforward stuff.
Per the damage penalty rules, a normal person with 3 boxes of damage is at a -1 penalty. So let's plug in the clearly-expressed formula above and see what happens. Boxes of damage = X = 3. Levels of Pain Resistance = Y = 3. Damage penalties calculated as if we had X-Y boxes of damage (3-3=0), so this example character takes no damage penalties. This is consistent with their example. The example breaks when they mention this character starts to do some reduced suffering after those 3 boxes of damage. Really this character shouldn't take any penalties at all until their 6th damage box (6 boxes - 3 PR = feels like 3 boxes, which is a -1 penalty). From a literal standpoint, the example is correct, but it can easily be misinterpreted. Kinda like saying "after you get a busted lip, you can die" is technically true but it's leaving out the part where your assailant has given you a concussion and a broken neck as well. ~~~~~ The ray of sunshine comes when we look at the High Pain Tolerance quality.
That example makes sense: 4 boxes - 2 HPT = feels like 2 boxes, which is a -0 penalty. The last bit of info comes from the bioware Damage Compensators.
There's no example there, unfortunately, but it reinforces the X-Y precedent. ~~~~~ Now, my question (it's been brought up elsewhere). Is "unconsciousness" considered a "wound modifier?" Let's say I'm Average Joe with a 3 Body and 1 point of pain-ignoring powers from somewhere. Normally I go night-night when I've taken my 10th box of damage on either the Stun or Physical track, regardless of whatever damage penalties I might have. Since I compute my damage penalties as if I had 1 box less damage, does that mean I don't actually black out until I've taken my 11th box? Or am I still KO'd at 10 boxes, I just don't feel as bad about it? |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:19 PM
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#15
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I know it was like that before, but in SR4 there's no damage levels, and a few boxes of damage slips by your downstaging a lot more often. Penalties at one damage box could easily place you at an almost permanent -1 penalty. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:20 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Quite simply, no. Unconsciousness is not a modifier, it's a state of being. Pain Tolerance is not a source of free damage boxes.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:33 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Not as much "extra damage boxes" as "delaying the consequences of the damage you've taken." Someone with an active Pain Editor will simply not fall unconcious from Stun damage; not because he's got extra boxes, but just because he's ignoring the boxes he does have. A Body:3 and Willpower:3 guy could get Damage Compensators at rating 12 and might likewise be intended to just keep going until the very moment of his death. Or, he could pass out when either track reaches 10 but never have a clue that he's even hurt. I could see it going either way. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:52 PM
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#18
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Because you could use stims to keep fighting longer in previous editions, not just fight just as good though damaged, I'm having pain resistance delay unconsiousness with a number of boxes equal to rating. That is, a guy with rating 3 pain resistance of some sort falls unconsious when he's gotten 3 boxes of physical overflow stun or 3 boxes of damage overflow (if aplacable).
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Mar 9 2006, 07:27 PM
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#19
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Same here - when paying up for those Damage Comensators (11), you shouldn't drop before the guy with just a Pain Editor.
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