 New Rules for automatic weapons, The title says it all |
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  Mar 9 2006, 10:41 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 9-March 06 Member No.: 8,351  |
Well, I do like the SR4 rules but one thing always catch me as buggy: the automatic weapons rule, for me, when you "spray" an area with bullets your are trying to hit at least one bullet on the target but, nevertheless, in SR4 the more bullets you "spit" at a target, the harder it gets to actually hits it!
I'm in the mod of trying a new simple rule: instead of wide burst reducing your oponent's dodge roll it adds to your dice pool for the to hit roll, so, if you get agility 4 and Firearms 4 and are shooting at someone with an assault rifle in full auto and, by some mods, got a recoil compensator of 6 your combat poll will be: 4 (agility) + 4 (firearms) +9 (full auto bonus) -4 (uncompensed recoil) - whatever modifiers you see fit. This way its getting more easy to hit the target and, by adding the sucess on the roll to the damage, you can up your damage potencial too. Please show me your input on this. And sorry for the broken english. |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:31 PM
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#2
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I don't like it. The only reason it gets harder to hit stuff when shooting more bullets is because of recoil. I don't think the increased potential of accidental hits does anything to make up for the decreased accuracy.
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Mar 9 2006, 12:41 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Is this based on personal experience? |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:43 PM
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#4
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
No way man :) . I'm a swede, I've never seen a gun that's not designed to shoot ducks or moose.
I've just seen you and the other gun experts talk alot about this stuff, and made my assumptions from that. Also, friends who did military service have told me that it's really tough to hit anything with auto-fire. |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:59 PM
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#5
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Further more it makes sense. If I were to fire a gun or rifle sort of aiming in the right direction, moving my aim to cover an area like I would with a wide burst from an automatic weapon—I could stand there all day without hitting the mark. One thing I do know from personal experience is that you're more likely to hit with one concentrated shot than with a whole mag of winged shots. That lesson can be learned from shooting airguns at the funfair.
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Mar 9 2006, 01:54 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 385 |
A swede here also and I have triggertime with a lot of weapons not designed for hunting ;)
There is a reason for not firing short 3-4 shot burst with a 7.62x51 MG and instead firing 10-20 rounds. Also, there is a hell of a difference between firing full auto with a silenced MP5 and a vanilla G3KA4. The rules make no difference at all. There is a time for single shot and doubletap and there is a time for burst and full auto. SR:s rules are quite horrible at anything except single shot/semi-auto. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:04 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Agreed. And when it is time for automatic fire (short bursts or cyclic), it is generally because you wish to increase your probability of a hit. To use an extreme example, there's a reason why close air defense platforms use small caliber, high RoF gatling cannons instead of large caliber breech loaded cannons, even though the latter is undoubtedly more accurate and more likely to produce a kill on a hit against just about any type of target. Yet in Shadowrun a railgun is better for AAA than an autocannon. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:08 PM
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
SR3's searching fire rules covered that pretty well, didn't they?
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Mar 9 2006, 05:39 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, it's better than nothing. The biggest problem with SR3 Searching Fire is that it only gets you a few more dice, which doesn't really help you against high TNs. It seems to me that RL automatic fire is most useful for increasing your hit probability in situations where the TN would be very high -- like firing at quick moving objects or targets that are concealed. Whether that could be reasonably simulated with the SR3 rules, I'm not sure, but (surprise surprise) I think my SR3 autofire house rules make a better job of it than the various options in canon SR3.
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Mar 9 2006, 05:45 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
whahahahahat? dude, the whole reason autofire was invented was to increase the likelihood of getting a hit. i have fired automatic weapons, and AE has as well; we can both tell you that in most cases, you're going to get a hit more often with a burst than with a single shot. recoil doesn't affect your aim that much. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:51 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
Reconsweden
From your experience, how would you make SR4 more match the different firing capabilities for RL? I would be curious to see any ideas you have if you are interested in doing this. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:53 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
This is an erroneous assumption. Even without recoil compensation Wide BF, both Short and Long, normally increases the chance of hitting. The only time they don't is if the defender is rolling the same number or more dice than the attacker. Add in recoil compensation and Wide BF gets even better at hitting. Fear the Ingram White Knight laying down Long Wide Bursts. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:10 PM
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#13
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
At least with the wide burst rules you can make it extremely difficult to dodge. This simulates easier hitting fast moving targets to some extent, doesn't it?
Ok. I've confessed to the limits of my experience, so you can imagine I won't contend this. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:33 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
brahm, the thing is, that's only true if there are no other penalties to the shot. with rain, darkness, etcetera, even wide bursts quickly knock you down to 0 dice. in real life, autofire is best when there are impediments to accurate shooting.
i wasn't making fun of you, or anything, mintcar. just, y'know, found it amusing. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:42 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
With recoil compensation it usually is an improvement. The Ares Alpha AR and FN HAR for example both come with 2 points stock. That means Short Wide is always an improvement come snow, sleet, or driving rain. Long Wide with no extra recoil added is an improvement unless the defender has about 40% more dice. Given how tough it is to come up with defender dice that isn't going to happen very often. EDIT The AK-97 does not have any recoil compensation. That is likely how they are trying to simulate the relative inaccuracy of the AK series. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:44 PM
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#16
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
mfb: No problemo. Had an urge to respond to save face, that's all.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:51 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's only true if the shooter is above-average, Brahm. an average shooter, with 6 dice, is going to be SOL firing a long wide burst in any conditions besides a clear, sunny day at a target with no cover. even a short wide burst is going to put an average shooter up the creek at night.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:59 PM
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#18
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Even in the light of all this enlightened testemony, I don't like the original poster's suggestion. It would make it the best choice in all situations to shoot as long bursts as possible.
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Mar 9 2006, 07:00 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
honestly, that's as it should be. the biggest reason to not just use full auto all the time should be ammo considerations.
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Mar 9 2006, 07:06 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
It just doesn't seem all that fun to have the rules work that way, though. The rules as written largely satisfy action movie concepts of how guns ought to work, while injecting small doses of reality (exact dosage varies). I'd hate to lose that.
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Mar 9 2006, 07:09 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Er, no. As I pointed out a Short Wide Burst is always an improvement with those ARs. At least the first one. The second one usually will be too because it is trading off 1 die for 2. |
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Mar 9 2006, 07:10 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the game designers feel the same way. i prefer more realistic SR games. one's not better than the other, inherently--but if you're looking for realism, that houserule isn't a bad place to start.
no, it's not. if modifiers reduce your die pool to 0, it's not an improvement. it's only an improvement if you're already good enough at shooting to overcome lots of modifiers. for low-skill shooters--who should, realistically, gain great benefit from full-auto--bursts plus modifiers often equals 0 dice pool. |
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Mar 9 2006, 07:17 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If I understood it correctly, the rule as mentioned by Juca Bala does have one serious problem: it would only ever be worthwhile to fire bursts of as many rounds as you have points of Recoil Compensation. Every additional shot fired in the burst beyond that would not give you any advantage. Wide bursts would be completely useless unless you had Recoil Compensation.
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Mar 9 2006, 07:23 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Firing a Short Wide Burst from an Ares Alpha does not have a recoil penalty for the first Simple Action, look back and you'll see I explained that. Even if you haven't added any extra tweaks it is only a -1 die for the second Simple Action, and that is a pretty easy penality to get rid of. In the case of the Long Wide Burst causing a Long Shot because the Pool was already down to 3 dice or less it still can be an improvement. They just have to use Edge to take advantage of it. For example if the shooter has only 3 dice and the defender has 5 dice. If you then apply the -3 recoil penalty and the -5 penalty to the defender it has switched from an defender advantage to whatever they have for Edge. |
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Mar 9 2006, 07:26 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's still not as good a model of reality as the proposed houserule. it's not just high-end weapons that benefit low-end shooters using autofire. the SR4 rules work okay for higher-end shooters, but not for lower-end shooters. (i personally don't think the SR4 rules benefit even high-end shooters enough, but that's just my opinion.)
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