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> Mystic Adept, Counterspelling...
Thyme Lost
post Mar 11 2006, 11:34 AM
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Lets say someone is making a mystic adept.
The devote all the Magic rating into Adept Powers, leaving no magic for magic based skills. So, can the Mystic Adept still take Counterspelling.

When rolling Counterspelling, you roll

Counterspelling + Body
Counterspelling + Willpower
even
Counterspelling + Intuition against some illusion spells.
But you normally don't roll:
Counterspelling + Magic.

So can a Mystic Adept with no Magic left you Magic Based Skills take Counterspelling.


I'm leaning in the direction of No they can't. Counterspelling is a Magic Based Skill, even if you don't roll Magic with Counterspelling, but I want to hear what other people think.


Thyme...
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Darkness
post Mar 11 2006, 02:54 PM
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I'd like to agree, in a way.
He has no attribute for magic based skills, hence he can't use it. IMHO, the MA needs at least 1 point in his magic-ability-magic-attribute, to use the skill.
He can learn them IMHO, as a MA may do so, but using them is impossible for him, until he raises his magic and associates it with magic-related.abilities.
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Thanee
post Mar 11 2006, 03:13 PM
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Technically, they could probably use all the magic skills, just with 0 dice from their Magic Rating. ;)

I would certainly require at least one point of Magic to be devoted to Magician, otherwise I would just treat them like Adepts until they devote at least one point towards Magician, like they have the potential, but it's not yet fully developed.

Bye
Thanee
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Seven-7
post Mar 11 2006, 03:13 PM
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A Mystic Adept may take and use the Counterspell Active Skill. All the skill requires is that you have at least 1 point in the Magic Attribute or one of the Magic qualities I believe, nothing more. The only thing the mystic adept is limited to is how many of his Magic Attribute he can use for dice tests involving the Magic Attribute.
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Brahm
post Mar 11 2006, 03:26 PM
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No, you need at least 1 point of Magic for Counterspelling. If the Mystic Adept does not devote a point of his Magic toward his Magician side he has Magic 0 for those skills like Counterspelling, Sorcery, etc. So he would not be able to take the skill.

Not that it isn't still a decent trade-off of 5 BP, 1 PP, and however many BPs and karma for the Counterspelling and the option to have a Counterspelling focus given how important Counterspelling is to protecting you from Spells.
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Shadow_Wanderer
post Mar 11 2006, 04:25 PM
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Personally, i wouldnt allow someone to put 0 points into magic based skills. Just read the last paragraph for the mystic adept quality:

QUOTE
Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be
careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for
characters that intend to explore their nature as mystic adepts.

I would consider them to be not "exploring their nature as mystic adepts".
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FrankTrollman
post Mar 11 2006, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 113)
only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.


QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 187)
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills.


This is unambiguous. If you don't allocate at least 1 point of Magic attribute to your mana-based abilities, you are considered to have a Magic attribute of 0 for the purposes of the Counterspelling skill and cannot take or use it. The fact that you don't actually add your Magic attribute to the dice pool of the most common uses for Counterspelling means that a character who was highly invested in Spell Defense might not bother allocating more than 1 point into mana-based abilities, but they've got to put in at least 1.

-Frank
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jervinator
post Mar 12 2006, 12:58 AM
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I personally feel that if you take Mystic Adept and don't allocate at least 1 point to the use of macigal skills (as opposed to physical augmentations), you are merely a munchkin with long-range plans. If you want to justify EVER having skills regarding either casting or countering spells, you must BEGIN with at least rating 1 in the base prerequisites, in this case Magic attribute.

OTOH, The Man hath spoken, and he hath quoted scripture.
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Seven-7
post Mar 12 2006, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 113)
only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.


QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 187)
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills.


This is unambiguous. If you don't allocate at least 1 point of Magic attribute to your mana-based abilities, you are considered to have a Magic attribute of 0 for the purposes of the Counterspelling skill and cannot take or use it. The fact that you don't actually add your Magic attribute to the dice pool of the most common uses for Counterspelling means that a character who was highly invested in Spell Defense might not bother allocating more than 1 point into mana-based abilities, but they've got to put in at least 1.

-Frank

While I agree Frank, thats not how RAW presents it. Notice in your second quote it doesnt say the word ATTRIBUTE once, therefor a Magic attribute of 1 or greater does not apply here.

Think of it like this....

If Mystic Adept/Magician Quality and Magic_Attribute 1+=Allow Magic Attribute Skill.
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nick012000
post Mar 12 2006, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE (Seven-7)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 11 2006, 04:01 PM)
QUOTE (SR4 @  p. 113)
only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.


QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 187)
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills.


This is unambiguous. If you don't allocate at least 1 point of Magic attribute to your mana-based abilities, you are considered to have a Magic attribute of 0 for the purposes of the Counterspelling skill and cannot take or use it. The fact that you don't actually add your Magic attribute to the dice pool of the most common uses for Counterspelling means that a character who was highly invested in Spell Defense might not bother allocating more than 1 point into mana-based abilities, but they've got to put in at least 1.

-Frank

While I agree Frank, thats not how RAW presents it. Notice in your second quote it doesnt say the word ATTRIBUTE once, therefor a Magic attribute of 1 or greater does not apply here.

Think of it like this....

If Mystic Adept/Magician Quality and Magic_Attribute 1+=Allow Magic Attribute Skill.

IF Quality = Mystic_Adept AND Magic_Attribute<=1 THEN Allow_magic_skills=1

;)
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FrankTrollman
post Mar 12 2006, 04:32 PM
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I actually don't care how you program it. The fact is that if you don't allocate at least one point of your Magic attribute to mana-based skills, you'll have no Magic to "use with Magic-based skills", and you won't be able to use them, per the RAW.

-Frank
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Bullet Raven
post Mar 12 2006, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (nick012000)
QUOTE (Seven-7 @ Mar 11 2006, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 11 2006, 04:01 PM)
QUOTE (SR4 @  p. 113)
only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.


QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 187)
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills.


This is unambiguous. If you don't allocate at least 1 point of Magic attribute to your mana-based abilities, you are considered to have a Magic attribute of 0 for the purposes of the Counterspelling skill and cannot take or use it. The fact that you don't actually add your Magic attribute to the dice pool of the most common uses for Counterspelling means that a character who was highly invested in Spell Defense might not bother allocating more than 1 point into mana-based abilities, but they've got to put in at least 1.

-Frank

While I agree Frank, thats not how RAW presents it. Notice in your second quote it doesnt say the word ATTRIBUTE once, therefor a Magic attribute of 1 or greater does not apply here.

Think of it like this....

If Mystic Adept/Magician Quality and Magic_Attribute 1+=Allow Magic Attribute Skill.

IF Quality = Mystic_Adept AND Magic_Attribute<=1 THEN Allow_magic_skills=1

;)

CODE
if (Mystic_Adept && Magic Attribute >= 1) {
    Allow_magic_skills = 1;
}


:spin:
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mdynna
post Mar 12 2006, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (jervinator)
I personally feel that if you take Mystic Adept and don't allocate at least 1 point to the use of macigal skills (as opposed to physical augmentations), you are merely a munchkin with long-range plans. If you want to justify EVER having skills regarding either casting or countering spells, you must BEGIN with at least rating 1 in the base prerequisites, in this case Magic attribute.

OTOH, The Man hath spoken, and he hath quoted scripture.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If you take Mystic Adept you must allocate at least 1 point of Magic to Adept powers and at least 1 point to Magician powers. Otherwise you are "munching" the system to be a "cheap" Magician or Adept.
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