 XX rounds flavor?, Gun-gurus help. Description, roleplaying |
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 Mar 12 2006, 04:51 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727  |
After some quick exploring, every runner in my group is using XX rounds in almost every situation. I can completely understand that, ruleswise, there is no better option. (Considering mostly urban scenarios, and non awakened, lightly armored oponents)
However, I do not know how to describe the effects of combat using xx rounds. (other than higher body counts) I do not know much about the “flavor” of X or XX rounds. I mean, do they exist in the Real World? If they exist; how dangerous-unreliable are they and in which scenarios are they used? Why would a runner NOT use XX rounds? Easier to detect on chemsniffers? Flamethrower spell? Noisy? Most importantly, how do you describe the use of these fraggers in combat? Do they “explode” in a loud bang? Can they be used in silent scenarios? Are they visually different to regular rounds? Do they leave bigger holes than regulars or they just shatter on the inside leaving bloodier, messier wounds? Cheers, Max Ps: As a sidenote, do you allow gas vents on pistols? Please elaborate... |
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Mar 12 2006, 05:03 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
they're explosive. i think the implications should be pretty obvious.
sure, you can silence the gun, but the bullet exploding inside someone else's body (or inside the drone, the walls, whatever) is going to make noise, and there's not much you can do about that. visually, the bullets will also be more obvious when they hit. thus, silenced guns will be fine if all you want is to keep people from finding your location by sound, but pretty much useless if you want to keep people from knowing you exist at all. oh, and ex-ex are pretty unpleasant on critical glitches. not sure if that's enough to deter your players or not, but it is something to consider. and i personally might make them more susceptible to flamethrower spells, but that would be a houserule. |
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Mar 12 2006, 05:05 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Fanpro really dropped the ball on ammo stats. With a group like yours getting rid of the XX is likely to just move them onto the nugget of insanity that is flechette ammo.
Do a search on ExEx or Ex-Ex and it'll pull up more. @Jaid - As written it is all Glitches, not just Critical Glitches. |
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Mar 12 2006, 05:30 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
You're just lucky they haven't discovered how insanely good Stick'n Shock is yet. 6S against half impact armor and there's about a 50% chance of stunning a relatively average human? Plus they can short out (at least for 3 rounds) drones up to the size of a doberman pretty often (nine dice vs. your attack hits). Sign me up!
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Mar 12 2006, 05:34 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This is true for most applications of sound suppressors. They are best for masking your location, not for killing people without anyone noticing. When using relatively powerful handguns, even with a hefty sound suppressor you're talking about something like 110-120dB or so for the shot itself, and then you have to deal with the probably supersonic projectile, the noise of projectile impacting, and the propensity of severely wounded people (such as those suffering from a firearm-related injury) to scream loudly. |
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Mar 12 2006, 05:35 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
well the thing is the effect is definately a plus, you get a shotgun sized hole for the ammo consumption of a pistol. detonation is inside the target so you definately get a nice loud thwock when hitting meat.
its only single rounds so its effectively useless against things like devil rats and the like in an enclosed space. that is where you want a burst fire shotgun loaded with flechette and using a 50 round drum magazine. its also useless against vamps, they really dont like it when you burst fire flechette into their lightly armored selfs before they can mist form. it kinda ruins their day and finally, being engulfed by fire elementals really sucks when your carrying large amounts of explosives or explosive ammo. and though the test in SR3 requires box cares (double 6's) for them to explode, if one goes, their all weakend and then they will start a chain reaction blowing the rest of the gear. |
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Mar 12 2006, 05:49 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
warrior_allanon: Do all those fucked up rules regarding elemental fire secondary effects still exist in SR4?
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Mar 12 2006, 06:02 PM
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#8
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
maxhunter, a word of advice. if you want to talk SR ammo or guns, dont summon the gun-gurus. all you get is moaning about how bad the rules are :silly:
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Mar 12 2006, 06:19 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, threads full of praise by the clueless are so much more enjoyable.
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Mar 12 2006, 06:41 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Actually, the most enjoyable threads are the ones where the gun-nut doesn't call you "clueless" because you're not so into real world guns.
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Mar 12 2006, 06:50 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Sorry, it's a reflex action when I'm called a whiner, or a nut.
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Mar 12 2006, 06:59 PM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
its more that im tired of reading the same old posts over and over. decrying the faults of the rules for the 1001'st time do not make them less so...
im not interested in praising the clueless either, but last time i checked, SR was not aimed at being a police training simulator in the effects of firearms use... oh, and im sorry that you took offense austere, but i was aiming in the general sense... |
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Mar 12 2006, 07:44 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No worries. Sticks and catapult projectiles, etc.
So am I. You may note that us firearm-insane haven't been starting a whole lot of new threads about these things lately. It's just that new people start asking the same questions about some things in the game, so we keep giving the same answers. And then someone counters with the same stuff that we've debunked a dozen times in threads past, and on it goes. And when someone asks about how weapons really work (like MaxHunter did), it's hard to answer in a way that doesn't make the canon SR way of handling things seem a bit odd. Not that we even try, of course. :evil: |
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Mar 12 2006, 08:28 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
:D
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Mar 12 2006, 08:55 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
For reasons not to use EX explosive -
1) Cost. EX is the most expensive bullet there is. If you plan on using a light, autofire weapon with a lot of ammo expenditure (and I've seen more ammo used in SR4 than previously), then this cost can add up fast. For one point of damage, is it really worth spending twice as much as regular Explosive and five times regular ammo? Check what you're paying your runners for little jobs. 2) Non lethal applications. Goes without saying, really. Gel and Stick-n-shock are better here. Gel is *really* nasty with its knockdown effect, Stick-n-shock is also really nasty for that instant stun potential and shorting out drones. 3) Silence. Fletchettes are the better choice, here. It's a bullet that explodes, so obviously it'll make some noise. |
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Mar 12 2006, 09:44 PM
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#16
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im not entirely sure if he asked about how it realy worked, or if he just asked how to handle them (or more specificaly, the EXEX ammo) in the SR world... what im reacting to is the need to drag the silencer "debate" into this thread. done by jaid, followed up by you... but as its allready here let me put som more bullets into it... i would say for arguments sake that the SR silencer/supressor is somehow able to slow a normal bullet down to subsonic speed. ok so that should have some impact on range and penetration power. maybe reduce the range of all weapons by say 10%, and reduce the AP by 1-2 points. its not physics realistic but should illustrate the effect of subsonic ammo :P still, the silencer reduce the number of dice on a perception test, it does not elimitate it totaly (alltho that -4 can realy make it hard to pick up, or atleast figure that it came from somwhere close by). ok, so maybe EX and EXEX ammo should come with a +2 dice modifier on perception tests? that somewhat offset the use of a silencer... allso, general gunfire only needs 1 hit to be noticed... |
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Mar 12 2006, 10:22 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm pretty sure.
Oh, I had no intention to "debate" sound suppressors. Jaid himself apparently separated the game mechanics of it and the logical explanation of what's happening, so I expounded on that. Since SR4 doesn't differentiate between noticing a shot fired and knowing where it came from, other than by the amount of successes required on the Perception test, I don't think the way suppressors are dealt with ruleswise is too much of a problem. Personally, I don't think the subsonic ammunition thing is something to worry much about. For a quick fix, you could just change the perception test modifier to -2 when the ammunition is clearly supersonic, such as when the pistol or SMG ammunition was not acquired for suppressed use, or with rifle-caliber weapons. |
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Mar 12 2006, 10:42 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
oops :P in any case, he is asking about their existanse. and if so, what role they are used in and their stability when exposed to heat and other reasons to detonate...
heh, sounds simpler and more effective then my mess of modifiers :P guess i did a bit of shooting from the hip there... (on the silencer "debate" that is) |
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Mar 12 2006, 11:45 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As I mention in the thread I linked, ammunition that's in some ways similar does exist: a multi-purpose small arms cartridge that is pyrotechnically initiated (on impact, an incendiary mixture ignited, setting of the explosive) and designed to penetrate armor. They are used for destroying equipment and vehicles at long ranges -- this is because they are only effective with very large caliber small arms (ie. .50 BMG rifles and HMGs), and because they have a much more destructive through-armor effect than conventional AP rounds. High explosive small arms ammunition designed for anti-personnel use does not exist, nor would it make much sense -- you can get the same effect easier by using smart materials with deforming bullets. Not that .50 BMG or bigger firearms really need dedicated anti-personnel ammunition in the first place. They are less stable than explosive ammunition that is detonated with a fuze, but you can hit them with a hammer and they won't detonate, and you need to heat up the insides of the bullet to a temperature much higher than where the primer will go off -- ie. the propellant will pop off the bullet (and burn for a while) before the explosive in the bullet catches fire. The cartridges are probably held in a container where the bullets won't fly away from the source of heat when this happens, so you would eventually start getting some *poofs* (not *booms*, the explosive will only burn since there's no sharp impact or massive pressure). Since all the everything inside the cartridge container would be in the high 3-digit Celsius temperature range at this point, you might even get a few short chain reactions where the bullets are lying right next to each other. Once the incendiary mixtures in the bullets catch fire (which requires a very high temperature), the cartridge container will continue burn very hot for a while on its own. (This is all guesswork. I have never witnessed the effects of direct exposure to a conflagration on pyrotechnically initiated explosive ammunition, nor heard of anyone trying that.) IRL, heating up all that metal stored inside a closed container worn on your body would require a very long, direct exposure to a conflagration, such as being covered in an incendiary material for a few minutes, at which point the person carrying the ammo is way past caring about the fate of those cartridges. In canon Shadowrun, of course, things work very differently. Elemental fire can immediately detonate every flammable item carried by a person, and explosive small arms ammunition is extremely unstable. Run it however you want to. |
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Mar 13 2006, 01:28 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329 |
Simpler would be just moving the range up one category. Short becomes medium, and so on. That way you've got a -1 on the dice pool, and the maximum range is reduced. |
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Mar 13 2006, 03:02 AM
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#21
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
does reducing the range by 10% have that much of an effect. and how much of a range reduction do one get on subsonic bullets vs super sonic bullets?
but this is getting off track, and i belive the original question have been more or less answerd. alltho one should maybe give EX a +1 perception bonus and EXEX a +2 to reflect their noicy nature :P i wonder does corp offices and high security areas use triangulating mic's that listen for gunfire? should make life real interesting for that person packing EXEX ammo :silly: "sir, computer have picked up what it claim is EXEX ammo detonations in sector 32!" "send a FRT, only runners pack that kind of ammo!" |
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Mar 13 2006, 06:30 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The range reduction for sub-sonic bullets depends on the 'normal bullets' you are comparing them to. For 'common' pistols (9mm, .45, .40, 10mm, etc), there is no appreciable range reduction. For sub-machine guns chambered in pistol cartridges, you might lose a bit of effective range (maybe 10%?) but it depends on the SMG and the exact cartridge it's chambered in. For rifles, you are looking at a range reduction of at least 50%, depending on the rifle and the cartridge. For the standard assault rifle (normal range of ~500 meters) you are probably looking at a max range with sub-sonic ammunition of ~150 meters, at best.
Note that this assumes you are firing ammunition that has been specifically loaded to fire a sub-sonic bullet (the bullet can be heavier), as opposed to firing normally super-sonic ammo through a suppressor that bleeds off excess propellant. In addition, there are a few cartridges that have been recently developed to still delivery something approaching rifle like performance while remaining sub-sonic (.300 whisper and the 9x39 both come to mind). These cartridges have effective ranges out to 250+ meters. In short, the range reduction is usually only significant when firing sub-sonic loads out of rifles. |
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Mar 13 2006, 08:39 AM
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#23
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Is this errata? My book says it follows the rules for Ex ammo, which requires a critical glitch. |
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Mar 13 2006, 03:19 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
Thank you all guys. I consider all your posts much helpful and enriching.
IMO Austere Emancipator has hit the right targets here. As far as my group is concerned: X and XX ammo are noisier than regular ammo and so a +1, +2 modifier will be eyeballed into gun perception tests. My gunfight descriptions will accordingly be more pyrotechnic I presume. As it seems, X and XX ammo should not be a greater liability than they are already. Actually, they look safer in RL. The run-o-the-mill runner should not worry that their guns exploding on a regular basis. Just keep away from fireballing mages (they will magically burst all your personal explosives, but, hey, runners should always geek the mage first anyway.) I have also found this link most useful; Explosive ammunition (PIE), this is from raygun's page. Cheers, Max |
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Mar 13 2006, 03:29 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i've always thought the idea of explosive bullets for small arms is silly, for the reasons AE listed. as a result, i've always ignored the flavor text, instead calling Ex and Ex-Ex rounds "blended metal bullets". basically, they're bullets that are hard when they hit armor and frangible when they hit flesh. now, don't get me wrong--i don't buy into the blended metal hype at all, myself. but i can suspend my disbelief more easily for that than i can for exploding 9mm parabellum. it also offers a better explanation for why Ex and Ex-Ex rounds are (in SR3) better at piercing armor than normal rounds.
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