are control manipulation spells too powerful? Options

[fool]

SO last night we decided that controll manipulation spells might be too powerful. In SR3 there was a threshold of 1/2 w, not so in the new system (that we can find.) So my mystic adept with spellcasting 3 and magic (for spellcasting etc.) 3 and a force 2 power focus can cast a force 3 controll thoughts and make most people dance any tune they want if only for 3 combat turns (usuallylong enough to have my subject frag up their own buddies.)
Another question is which mental control spells does the victim realize he's been affected by? Control actions would seeem obvious, but what about control thoughts and emotions? If they're used subtly, does the victim automaticaly know they've been effected? Smae question with certain critter powers.

[eidolon]

My guess is yes. They were/are too powerful in SR3, even with the threshold.

[TinkerGnome]

SR3 had the downfall of rarer breakout tests, though.

In any case, they're strong but not necessarily that strong. For about the same level of effort, you could hit someone with Petrify or Turn to Goo.

I assume that the victim knows about most mental manipulations. The obvious exception being Influence.

[eidolon]

They do in my game. With the exception of Influence.

[Thanee]

They probably know that there has been something making them do things... they do not have to know what or even moreso from whom it originated.

That would require a little more indepth knowledge (or being able to observe the spellcasting).

Bye
Thanee

[jervinator]

The increased frequency of the breakout tests actually weaken them considerably. The exception is Influence, of course, but if the caster goes too far with it the victim's allies will quickly point out the wrongness and allow a breakout test or three.

[mdynna]

I don't have the rules handy but isn't there an Opposed Test for those control spells? Spellcaster rolls and Target opposes with WIL, then Net Successes determine duration? That would cut down on their power considerably. The above-mentioned Mystic Adept would be limited to 3 successes on his end of the test which most people with a decent WIL would counter most or all of.

[Thanee]

You only need one net hit to get (force) combat turns of control time.

After that, there are additional resistance tests, but not opposed, it's like an extended resistance test against the original spellcasting attempt.

Bye
Thanee

[hobgoblin]

and that makes them fine for short brainfucks like getting that security guard to buzz them in, but shortly after that he will probably be hitting the alarm as he shaked that spell off...

[Zen Shooter01]

RE the subject noticing, don't forget the Noticing Magic rules in the first place. I would rule that a subject gets a breakout test immediately if they notice a spell being cast.

While the spell is happening, the subject doesn't realize it unless he succeeds at a breakout test. After the spell ends, whether or not the subject realizes what just happened depends on what they did under the control of the spell. For example, if a Wuxing guard under the influence of control thoughts buzzes a runner in a pretty convincing Wuxing exec disguise into the exec only lounge, he probably won't realize what's happened even after the spell ends. But if he buzzes in a ghoul with a machete in one hand and a molotov cocktail burning in the other, as soon as the spell ends - a few seconds later - he'll be asking himself, "What the f!!k did I do that for?"

A total stranger approaches you on the street and says, "Can I have ten nuyen? I ran out of gas", and you give it to them. Afterward, you might not think anything of it. Same stranger walks up to you and says, "Please give me your car, I ran out of gas," and you do - you'll probably be puzzled by that afterward.

Can anybody tell me how control actions is better than control thoughts?

[Thanee]

It's not better, that's why it has less Drain.

Bye
Thanee

[Dranem]

Control Actions: subject is more conscious that their body is doing something that they normally would not be doing.

Control Thoughts: great when subtle - as you mentioned if it's not too much out of the ordinary, it may not even occur to the subject that what they did was wrong.

[Rooks]

So the Influence is really pointless if the person is going to know what he did wasn't of his own free will few rounds after

[Thanee]

Influence is a single permanent (until completed) suggestion. That's a completely different spell.

Bye
Thanee

[tisoz]

[Thanee]

The only real answer there is to this is, that it's up to the GM, I guess. ;)

Bye
Thanee

[TinkerGnome]

The way it works in my games is that influence is the only "silent" one. After the influence suggestion is over, it fades. If the person just did something really bad, they will realize it and not understand why they did it but they won't necessarily know why.

For the Control spells, the person is concious the whole time and can tell that they are not in charge of their own actions (or thoughts).

[neko128]

[mdynna]

Turn to Goo is Sustained is it not? Plus, I think we've already had the "Turn to Goo thread", and I don't think its nearly as powerful as that. Read careful that the target has a Barrier equal to their (former) Body, so they are not "jello" but simply "moldable".

Personally I think this spell is not so much Offensive as it is a Utility spell. Cast it on your Adept (or have a Spirit of Man cast it on you the mage), squeeze under the door and appear on the other side of the room. Or infiltrate the facility through the water system. Pretty useful.

[TinkerGnome]

I would highly encourage rereading the spell before you try those tricks. My reading is that would likely kill the person.

[Dv84good]