 Stealing Cars/Bikes |
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 Mar 14 2006, 04:01 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 501 Joined: 3-February 06 Member No.: 8,227  |
I can't get a good feel for how stealing cars or bikes or other crafts goes in SR4. I've looked through the book, and it doesn't really get in to something as low brow as this or as specific on the operation of vehicles.
How do craft ignitions work in 2070? Keys? Any other security measures that have to be taken out? What would be the perfect complement of skills to be able to effectively steal vehicles? |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:27 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I'd say, first and foremost, a solid Hardware skill is absolutely vital to hotwire modern (2070) cars. I imagine that most cars also have an option to operate door locks, and even the ignition, entirely using the owner's commlink, as well, so a hacker may be able to fiddle themselves a new ride without too much effort.
Of course, once you're in and the car's running, don't forget GridGuide. Your car has a transponder and GPS that tells the road, and the cops, where you're trying to go (if you're on autopilot), where you are, how fast you're going, etc. I suppose you could jam those signals, but that's suspicious in and of itself. I'd figure, before the owner figures out the car has been stolen, you have anywhere from 5 minutes to a few hours (depending on the location) to get the car where it needs to go to swap transponders and move the car again before the cops are alerted and looking for that signal. Along the same lines, it may also not be wise to swap transponders in a regularly used lockup, as there may be a log kept of the car's path in GridGuide. I'd say, ideally, have another transponder on-hand or nearby. Drive the car to a nearby parking garage or lot, swap transponders (using Automotive Mechanic), and ride on out of there to your lockup or chop shop. Even then, it's not perfect, but given the level of traffic, you'll probably disappear into the noise. |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:12 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
On a regular car the transponder is most likely wireless, and probably linked to the cars system. The simplest way to handle the transponder would be to either edit its data or spoof its datatrail.
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Mar 14 2006, 02:56 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
You steal my bike, I kill you.
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Mar 14 2006, 03:31 PM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I would think under the SR4 Rules if you hacked the car's Pilot you could pretty much take over it. |
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Mar 14 2006, 03:32 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 501 Joined: 3-February 06 Member No.: 8,227 |
How would I do that? |
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Mar 14 2006, 03:36 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
If I remember right from the device rating table, your average car or bike would be a device rating 3. So you do a hack-on-the-fly against that. Your average car probably doesn't have any IC on it, so I'd ignore that (though as a GM, I'd roll a random chance that it's owned by a hacker, or someone who knows a hacker, and thus does). So pretty much you're running a hack-on-the-fly where an alarm means it transmits an "I'm being stolen!" message to Lone Star and its owner. Once you're in, I'd say it's an Edit to open the doors and an Edit to get it started without proper authorization, but then operation would be pretty easy without an alert.
The problem would be, of course, that the wireless nature of... Well, everything, means that every vehicle is implicitly low-jacked, and it would be depressingly easy to trace it. If you just want a getaway vehicle, though, you might be able to get away with temporarily disabling the wireless on the computer. |
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Mar 14 2006, 03:45 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
You've got 3 basic options for stealing vehicles in 2070: hack it, crack it or jack it.
Hacking means a rigger/decker who electronically breaks into the vehicles' computer system and registers your Comm as the valid digital key. This is basically the same as taking over a drone and editing the subscription list. The downside is that you need to have the owner in sight long enough to make a Matrix Perception test so you can then Spoof the car. An Edit later and the car will respond to you as the owner. Cracking requires using Hardware to bypass the computerized alarm and probably Mechanic (ground vehicle) to rewire the car to start manually. Jacking means point a gun at the driver's head and take their wheels. A fave of the hopped up ganger crowd. |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:19 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I'd go with most of this except probably use Control in place of edit for manipulating physical devices. Additionally I would say some basic IC may be part of an advanced theft deterrent system (probably would see something like that on a Westwind or a Limo, probably not on a commuter car). You could use edit to tamper with various onboard files which might include registration tags maybe, navigation files (I wonder if cars pilots save favorite locations in 2070?), fuel or battery level, maintance logs. There may actually be a wealth of useful information stored on the car's system. Thoughts? |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:42 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Then the old standby of lifting. A towtruck faked to be legal, and something to deal with the lo-jack such as a jammer. Of course with the current jamming rules all the car needs is an ECCM program + Signal to be greater than 6 and you can't jam it with list equipment. So maybe a Mechanics check to locate and rip out the antenea, perhaps requiring a Hardware test to bypass the security alarm sensor watching for just such a thing. |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:25 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I like kigmatzomat's listing. Only I'd let you use hardware to hotwire the vehicle as well as defeat the locks.
And my opinion counts double since you're wanting to steal cars in a game I'm running ;) |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:34 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I believe that jammers go up to rating 10 not 6, but its morning and I could be very wrong. |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:43 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
No, you are right. Oops. :oops: Of course using a Rating 10 jammer is just another way of saying a trail of public nodes dropping out and coming back for LoneStar to follow. Plus there is always the unidirectional communication bugaboo since by the rules, and this doesn't make huge sense to me, the area affected by the jammer is very limited. Maybe it is suppose to effectively negate outgoing too in that area? |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:37 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I was on the fence but I decided that while the electronic defenses are more Hardware, modifying the automotive systems are more Mechanic. My reason being that you are making a car-specific modification and you have to understand the car in question enough to do so. In a world of electric cars, the "ignition" system may be a drop in voltage, change of phase, or more esoteric event. Since this is data only pertinent to the automotive world, I figure that starts venturing into Mechanic. The other thing is that disassembling the steering column/dash to get to the correct wiring also falls to Mechanic. You could always default on skills but time will start to be a factor at some point. TinkerGnome's players may be cursing me but tough; I'm a GM too. Neener! ;P |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:47 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Except that there are two ways to come at this; forcing the ignition to start, or convincing the computer that controls the car it should start the ignition. The former has to do with the mechanical operation of the car; the latter has to do with fooling the computer. Very different approaches. |
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Mar 14 2006, 09:01 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 501 Joined: 3-February 06 Member No.: 8,227 |
I see the Hardware only point of view because we are talking electronics...not the engine, which is what, IMO, the Mechanic skill seems to focus more on.
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Mar 14 2006, 09:28 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Well, I'd probably allow either Automotive Mechanics or Hardware to work. Older vehicles would probably be Mechanics only, but I anticipate that the level of computer and electronic integration present in the 2070s will be such that you can convince the ignition to fire (hardware) with about the same degree of difficulty as you can bypass it (mechanics).
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Mar 14 2006, 10:59 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
To me, though, the first is hacking the system since if the computer is running it should start demanding a valid Comm or start Lojacking the GPS coordinates to the cops. I figure Hardware disables the alarm systems and the car's brains (Pilot & Sensors). With Mechanics you get the car to function without those those high level systems. |
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Mar 14 2006, 11:28 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Ah! But the operative word here is "should!" Hacking is, by definition, making computers do things they aren't supposed to do. :) If you can break into a computer system, put a loop into the video cameras, unlock the doors, and deactivate the pressure sensors, all without alerting the security forces two floors up... There's no particular reason why you can't break into a computer's dog-brain, and convince it it really isn't being stolen. |
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Mar 15 2006, 03:08 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Those are really 2 different things. Disabling sensors in a way that the sensor doesn't appear to be disabled is a physical wiring hack, possibly with the inclusion of a couple of doodads (FPGAs) that provide the right loop-back signals. (BTW, you couldn't set a camera to loop video with the Hardware skill unless you brought a video player device to splice into the network. You'd use Computer to get the camera to use its internal memory in a loop) If the car's computer/pilot/agent is turned on and connected to the car, it WILL obey the rules of subscription lists and all the rest. Hardware skill can a) destroy the computer, b) bypass the computer, or c) replace components. A) & B) means you need mechanic to make the car work with a broken/missing computer. C) means you've brought a spare "hard drive" with preloaded software that says you are the boss (which requires Software to program a new pilot/agent or, if you go for the full computer replacement, a Knowledge or Mechanic check to program with stuff you need to make a car work, like ignition sequences for 4cyl vs. v6 vs inline 6 vs v8 vs diesel; how to shift gears with a transaxle vs. CVT, etc, etc) |
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Mar 15 2006, 04:25 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Hacking a car.
Is it wireless and activated or is it skinlink connection only? Let’s assume it is an average joe wireless car with signal 3, pilot 3 and response 3. Now we can do two things, and I choose the simpler one. First of all we need to find the wireless signal and make a Sniffer test (Electronic Warfare+Sniffer (3) test. After locating the signal we track it back to the originating commlink of the owner (Computer+Browse – Treshold???). Now we have the commlink so we make an Exploit test (Hacking+Exploit) and get enough access so that we can play as we like with his commlink. Make sure to do this when they are asleep, it’s much easier then. We locate the car on the subscription list with another browse test and make another Exploit test so that we can modify the cars subscription list as well. If we had done a spoof command we would only have been able to give it an order,that is not what we want, that wold have been the harder option since we are already inside the guys commlink). Edit the cars subscription list to only accept command from your commlink. Make an Edit (Computer+Edit) test to remove the car from his subscription list and then Spoof your datatrail. Now we are in control of the car, but we do have a problem, tracking. The The gridlink might be active and its transponder so we need to hack it. Let’s assume that the transponder is a wireless device separate from the rest of the car (The man might want to keep an eye on joe citizen). We make an exploit test again on the transponder (probably a basic rating 3 unless a luxury car). After hacking into the transponder we edit the information to do something of the following: A: Let it transmit that it is in the same location until you can remove the transponder. B: Shut it down. The gridlink might have to be disabled as well and that should be easy enough to do through the cars pilot. Now we own a car. The response and such might be higher with more luxurious cars and if we are unlucky they might have loaded it up with IC and encryption (might be a bit annoying for a good hacker) but depending on the car it might be quite easy to steal a car through wireless. In the case of skinlink you might have to get a bit closer and use a more…hands on approach. :grinbig: |
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Mar 15 2006, 04:38 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Not necessarily, no, and that's my point. If the cameras are controlled and have their images distributed by computer, then you can do it on the software level as well. Sure, you can physically interrupt the feed from a camera (assuming it's not wireless), but if all the data goes to a central security computer, you can edit it there as well. For a car, it'll transmit an alarm if it thinks it's being stolen. That "thinks it's being stolen" is an amalgamation of more than one piece of data, and the decision to send the alarm (plus the alarm itself) are carried out by a single computer, not by every individual thing that MIGHT indicate it was being stolen (door locks, speedometer, ignition, blah blah). Sure, it can be done in hardware; but it's not true that it can ONLY be done in hardware. |
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Mar 15 2006, 04:41 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 501 Joined: 3-February 06 Member No.: 8,227 |
So, can I just shoot someone in the face and take their commlink?
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Mar 15 2006, 04:52 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I agree that you could also hack into a network of video cameras and make some changes to the feed using Edit. But this goes back to my "hack it" example where you confuse & override the software. I was explicitly limiting myself to examples based on the Hardware skill since the discussion had, IMO, focused on the uses of Hardware vs. Mechanic when stealing a car. As I understand the RAW, Hardware allows you to futz with the electronics of a computer, adding or subtracting physical capabilities (Response, Signal, skinlink, memory, hard-links to devices, etc). Computer allows you to make that computer do what you want within its normal range of operations. Software/Hacking allows you to make that computer do something else within the limits of its hardware. Mechanic is something of a hodgepodge as it lets you repair and modify vehicle systems, which includes vehicular computers. This means it is less capable at metal working, Hardware and Software in general but has specialized knowledge that allows it to work with those systems as they relate to vehicles. Hardware can work on all computers but it lacks knowledge of special applications. Meaning that with Hardware you could build a computer to go in a car but Hardware skill alone doesn't tell you that it needs to be able to endure X-hz vibration, shocks of Y g-force, and with a temperature range of A-Z. Nor will it tell you what that computer needs to do if it is going to run the car (Does the fuel injection system store its own algorithms? Should the water pump spin up dependant on speed or just wait for temperature? What is the optimal RPM/torque curve? Should the firing sequence vary with speed or torque? etc, etc). |
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Mar 15 2006, 04:52 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Using the sensitivity and nuisance of current-day car alarms as a yardstick, I'd venture to say that alarms would not automatically notify the police. I'd probably rule, barring any contrary canon information (or even despite it), that the car's security system notifies the owner of the vehicle via commlink, who can then verify the theft and, if the car is actually missing, notify the police via the same "possible theft" notification.
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