 SR4 Starting Power Levels, The perceived (im)potency of 400 BP |
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 Mar 15 2006, 07:07 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773  |
Please keep your opinions restricted to what you think of the 400 BP character generation per the rules as written. Obviously if you're using house rules, the more radical they are the less likely your experiences will jibe with everyone else's.
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Mar 15 2006, 07:18 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the main problem, to me, is how close the chargen limits are to the advancement limits. if there were more room to grow, that'd solve a lot of the issues with chargen.
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Mar 15 2006, 07:18 PM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I voted (with for now the majority) for sort of powerful, the Samurai-Hacker Hybrid I built for our groups intro to SR4 campaign was able to easily defeat the average ganger or security guard at an average facility and able to do a few tricks with commonly encountered devices reatively easily. Doing more advanced things was more difficult and left a clear path for both Equipment Upgrades and Skill and Attribute Upgrades. Effective teamwork for our starting group was very key to success.
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Mar 15 2006, 07:21 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I suppose I shouldn't have voted, I haven't actually played 400 point characters yet. Though the ones I ran seemed to do okay.
Stevebugge: btw verjigorm is user #49 on dumpshock |
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Mar 15 2006, 07:33 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I'm getting a 320 BP game started, with small bonuses for good backgrounds. I can honestly say that the only two archetypes hurt by the even lower BP provided are mages especially, and riggers slightly (being unable to take all the skills they think they need). In general, however, I provided that many BP to ensure that my players would rely on their minds and their professionalism, rather than their stats. Since most of them are newbies, I think they'll really benefit from developing good habits early on.
For more practical experience, I did get to play, briefly, a 300 BP game, and my mage was extremely effective (even with only one combat spell!), because I played him intelligently. So while I voted that 400 was just right (and it is, if you want to break into the corporate sphere pretty early), I've had some success with 300-320, which forces players to stop relying on stats as the totality of their character, and show some ingenuity. If they don't mind starting in the gutter. |
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Mar 15 2006, 08:27 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
What BP scale did you use, and how did that go? |
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Mar 15 2006, 08:34 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 97 Joined: 30-January 06 Member No.: 8,213 |
I concurr, if the person builts the character right he will not be able advance in specific areas. |
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Mar 15 2006, 08:50 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
400 points has worked well for our group, limits and all. However, we don't really make characters that nudge up against the caps, so they aren't really an issue. My group generally avoids having skills above 3 unless there is a pretty good reason to do so, and we often don't spend the full 200 points on stats unless the character calls for it.
However, I can see these limits as being a major issue for groups that prefer to play characters that are the very best they can be right out of the box. It is very easy to make a character that is so good at their thing that there isn't all that much room to advance. |
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Mar 15 2006, 09:17 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
In the two games I've played, I ran a 475 point SR3 conversion character, and a 600 point SR3 conversion character. The 600points didn't include all the cash he had though. The 600 point character is a rigger for an over the top game, all restrictions were removed on attribute caps, monetary caps, skill caps. (the reason money didn't factor in was because he had a 10M nuyen banshee and other 100k+ vehicles and drones). The 475 game went really well and had higher stakes than a usual 400 point game, and the 600point game just raises the stakes even further. The characters in the 600point game are all international badasses, and definately in the top of their fields, but they are still just as dead when hit by a gun. the game I ran for a short while was 400 points only, and I tried to keep it pretty street level, but as for power, the shark shaman managed to TPK an entire go-gang with one manaball, so it really made a power statement. I think that because of the limited hitpoints of the system, that the number of starting build points will never make you invincible, it can only allow you to throw more dice in more areas. Which is fine because you just end up fighting equal level enemies. |
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Mar 15 2006, 11:05 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
perhaps you haven't tried to build a technomancer yet? oh, sure, it's *possible* to do it on 300 bp... if you completely throw complex forms out the window, learn the normal cracking skill group, and use a commlink. but yeah, sprites are freaking amazing... just don't try a technomancer. unless you're willing to make a lame excuse for a technomancer, that is... who either can't do anything, or isn't really a technomancer anyways, just a hacker that can summon (compile, whatever) sprites. otherwise though, in the gang campaign that TinkerGnome is running, i have a 300 bp character, and he's working just fine. could be stronger, but he's certainly no pushover, and that's with double cost for resources, max avail. 6 and max rating 4. |
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Mar 15 2006, 11:45 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
You're 100% right - I haven't tried to make a technomancer yet, as they don't interest me overmuch. So I didn't even think of it. I'm sure I'll make one eventually, and now that you mention it, they probably do have a tough time of it. Though a technomancer forced to rely on commlinks and such and then, over time, develop their technomancy skills might be interesting for me to try, at some point. As an aside for an earlier point, about the lower max advancement, I agreed at first. The more I think about it, however, the more I see it as a blessing in disguise. Once the sam has maxed out the skills he's had his eye on, maybe he'll take that point in Charisma or Logic. Maybe he'll drop a couple points in First Aid or Hardware, or even, God forbid a Social Skill. Once he's excelling in the specialty he's chosen, maybe the runner will branch out, and become a more well-rounded professional. Hell, maybe he'd even take a skill that would help the team as a whole, instead of the individual. Or drop a couple points in a skill that would save his ass after something bad happened in the previous run because he didn't have that skill. It's just a thought, your results may vary. |
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Mar 15 2006, 11:48 PM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh. i think there are better ways to accomplish that without making the game smaller.
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Mar 16 2006, 12:23 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i don't necessarily mind the skill/attribute caps, as such...
i mind that the players can start off *at* those skill/attribute caps. basically, i object to the fact that you can start off as someone who could have a real chance of getting a gold medal in the olympics. essentially, i would prefer it if, say, the starting max was 6, the in-game max was 8, and augmented max was 12 (just as an example). i wouldn't even mind if, similarly, they were to lower the starting max a little... though i prefer raising the caps a little instead... but, that's a whole 'nother thread, which i have posted too often to want to start it over again (too much, at least =P ) |
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Mar 16 2006, 04:08 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I agree with mfb and Jaid that the problem is the starting level and the maximum attainable level being too close together. I wish skills and Attributes weren't such a narrow range, too. In a system where attribute and skill ratings translate to dice, and a hit is a roll of 5 or better, it is too easy for an "average" person to outperform someone who is supposed to be the "best".
I won't say the system is underpowered (you can make some very tough characters), but I won't say it's overpowered, either, since the line between exceptional and mediocrity is so thin - I mean, a human taking the 200 bp max on Attributes and allocating it fairly equally would have 4 4's (just above average) and 4 3's (average). I would say the power level is about right. I just wish there was more room, advancement-wise. |
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Mar 16 2006, 04:28 AM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's too small, to me. the difference between a complete retard and captain fantastic is 14 dice--that's it. sounds like a lot, until you look at how steeply the probability curve rises between those.
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Mar 16 2006, 04:33 AM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Very little in Shadowrun is supposed to be assured; much is supposed to be left to chance. Hell, effectively, the amount of HP you have is variable. That's what Shadowrun is supposed to be about; there are few, if any, hard bonuses in the game. Then again, that might be a problem in and of itself.
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Mar 16 2006, 04:46 AM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
bah. i don't feel like arguing about levels of difficulty again.
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Mar 16 2006, 11:14 AM
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#18
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It's about time.
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Mar 16 2006, 03:03 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The poll is demonstrating a surprisingly nice bell curve (as of this posting).
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Mar 16 2006, 03:28 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the problem is, it's kinda weighted. the chargen system is designed to make characters people will be comfortable playing--chars who are pretty good at their main area of focus, and okay at a smattering of others. that's fine.
what's not fine is how close to the advancement limits that puts most characters. i voted that chargen makes characters too powerful... but that's not really what i meant. what i think is that chargen makes okay characters, but that the upper limit for characters is too low. not really the same thing. |
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Mar 16 2006, 03:32 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
If they would have explicitly removed the one of limit on Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude for a character in play that would have helped more there. Like what Lagomorph's group did. It also is going to depend some on how expensive and Available the Skill boosting implants are. Unfortunately right now Adepts have set the bar there pretty low, and their powers work in a lot more Skills than they used to. EDIT I'm ok with the couple hundred karma plus it takes to have an archetype really excel, but I do get how other people wouldn't be. |
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Mar 16 2006, 04:39 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 207 Joined: 3-November 05 From: KCMO Member No.: 7,922 |
Okay, so I voted for "Average Joe," but after reading for a bit, I'm not so sure.
I currently play a techno started at 400 BP & I feel underpowered. However, as I read along, I realized that part of that could be 'cause I wanted a few more skills than just techno...like Longarms, & Etiquette. Not only because these skills fit my background, but they make me more worthwhile to my team. (Glad I've got them, too, 'cause in this current adventure there's nothing for a techno to do, I'm simply an extra gun on this one.) On the other hand, two others in our party, the Sam & the Adept, pretty much concentrated solely on the fighting aspect, & are pretty much maxed out & a little over-powered, but far more one-note. So maybe it depends on a sort of min-max strategy that I didn't follow...I'll have to think about that.... |
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Mar 16 2006, 04:40 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
That would be a separate poll (read: "topic"), yes. |
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Mar 16 2006, 06:31 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
Just right. It's more about using what you've got.
Human Physical Adept No more than 4's in Attributes; a lot of skills with no more than 3's in them. Just a person using all that he's got. Not a one trick pony. And I think this is better for play. |
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Mar 16 2006, 06:47 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
That's probably more a TM issue. Hackers at chargen have to pay a lot less BP to be the equal to a starting technomancer. |
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