metatypes unbalanced?, are the BP costs for metahumans fair? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[captainwhizz]

sorry if this has been discussed before, it's my first time on the board, but does anyone else think that the BP costs for the different metatypes are broken?
specifically, for Elves. I realise that Orks, Dwarves and Trolls all have reduced racial maximums and Elves don't, but looking at starting characters:

Ork: 20 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 5 (50 BPs-worth). Low Light Vision.

Dwarf: 25 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 4 (40 BPs-worth). Thermographic Vision, Path/ Tox resistance.

Elf: 30 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 3 (30 BPs-worth). Low Light Vision.

Troll: 40 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 8 (80 BPs-worth). Thermographic Vision, extra Reach, extra Armour

An Elf pays 10 BPs more than an Ork, but gets 20 BPs-worth less attribute boosts. Does capping the Ork's Charisma and Logic at one lower than norm really account for a 30 BPs difference?

[FanGirl]

If you made it advantageous to be an elf, the shadows would be overrun by them. I mean, elves are awesome enough that The Powers That Be need to give the other races special incentives just to ensure diversity.

[Ophis]

Major point agility is the best ability score, look how many skills link to it, yes elves are worth 30. Orcs are cheap though, thats volume for you :)

[Synner]

Don't forget that Orks (and Trolls for that matter) get an unspoken disadvantage - racial prejudice and marginalization (at least in proper society)... depending on how much roleplaying and NPC interaction figures in your game that can be a pretty powerful disadvantage.

[captainwhizz]

Orks and Trolls get discriminated against, but they can smack the stuffing out of people too.

It's not a huge problem, but it just bugs me that it doesn't seem properly balanced.

[Dissonance]

Well, another thing to consider is that body is really a reactive stat. Sure, you can soak more damage and, like, add one die to certain social intimidation tests if you have a body above six, but it's really difficult to use the body stat proactively against somebody.

Well, with the exception of athletics type stuff.

Stuff like strength and agility and charisma and agility and all that? Those are the stats you use to actively F someone up. Body's prime use is damage mitigation.

[James McMurray]

Dwarves and trolls get to pay more for their gear also, at least the size specific stuff. It doesn't come into play during character creation, but the longer the campaign runs the more of a downside it can be.

[Kremlin KOA]

[FanGirl]

I wonder whether captainwhizz really wants to play an elf. If he preferred another meta race, I'd imagine that his comments would be more along the lines of "Ha ha, Orks and Trolls get more attribute points than stupid gimpy keebs!" Anyway, you shouldn't let balance issues steer you away from elfhood if that's what you truly want. Remember, role over rollplaying!

I've noticed that humans are absent from your equation. Humans get the worst deal, statwise: one measly Edge point. This is clearly anti-human discrimination! With their inferior stats, humans have nothing from which to defend themselves against the other races. This injustice cannot stand! Think of the children!

The above paragraph is brought to you by the Humanis Policlub. :P

[Jaid]

of course, humans actually get the best bonus... something for nothing :P

but actually, elves are fine as is, IMO.

for one thing, YES, that penalty to log and cha really hurts.

you may not realise just how much. for example, both of the current magic traditions require at least one of those attributes.

charisma is a huge thing in SR, for *everyone* in the team. you really, really don't want your cha 1 troll ganger threatening the Yaks, or for that matter failing to give rigid attention to japanese etiquette when in his presence. it makes your team look unprofessional, and that reduces your pay. and, in the wrong situation, can get you killed.

if you are trying to con your way into someplace as part of your run, that 1 charisma troll better have some skill, or he automatically gets 0 net hits... not so good, because it frags over the entire team, not just him.

Anytime you want to get gear, or do legwork, charisma will come into play. and legwork is huge in SR.

also, logic is worth free BPs for knowledge skills. and yes, knowledge skills are good to have in SR.

furthermore, charisma is an important attribute for all magicians, regardless of tradition (For spirits) and is also important for technomancers (for sprites, and for not having your brain come dripping out of your ears).

so, yes, that penalty to logic and charisma is not like the half-orc from D&D, where you can pretty much never worry about them (and for that matter, it's not even a big penalty even if those are important stats to your character)... this is 1/6 of your maximum for each point, and it also affects the maximum you can ever get.

frankly, all things considered, unless trolls start off with their bod and str almost maxed out, they are going to be hurting when it comes time to raise those stats later....

oh, and finally... phsyical stats are easy to boost, generally speaking, compared to mental ones... so a large bonus to physical stats is not as big of a deal, because a human can get to 9 strength, body, agility, and reaction much more readily than a troll can get to his whopping augmented max of 6 in logic and charisma.

[FanGirl]

[eidolon]

[Glyph]

Elves actually have a good deal. Essentially they sacrifice a point of Edge to have the ability to start out with higher Agility and/or Charisma. Attributes are much more important now, and with the last/maximum point costing extra, having a higher cap also means much more. Getting 6 Agility or 7 Charisma for only 40 points is huge. They make awesome speed sammies, faces, and mages.

A troll will start out with incredible Attributes, but their only truly high scores can be in Body and/or Strength, and over time they will be far more limited.

[captainwhizz]

[Ophis]

The attribute "penalties" are not that much of a proble IMHO, since trolls can have 3 cha at the same price as a human why is it a problem? It just means they have a hard time excelling in cha based field. The penalty is just a cap It only alters the cost of the final point and everything starts at 1.

[Xavier Grimwand]

Tried a code block?

[Shrike30]

[Azralon]

Everyone starts at 1 in SR4 (modified by race), and then you buy up using BPs. If your race effectively has an attribute "penalty" then it just means your cap in that attribute is lower.

So, according to my understanding, a troll buying a Cha:3 has to spend 20 BP. Getting a Bod:6 costs him only 10 BP because trolls start with a 5 in Body.

[captainwhizz]

[Moon-Hawk]

Look, way back in SR history, FASA tried making all the metatypes mechanically balanced. The result? Everyone played elves. F***ing elf fanboys/girls. (not to say I haven't played my share) Except for the people who played trolls.
I think if you include the game mechanical balance (unbalanced as it is), combine that with in-game prejudice, combine with that the out-of-game prejudices of the players toward the different metatypes, and I think you'll find that each metatype begins to crop up about as often as any other.
In other words, I think you should leave it as-is, because if they're mechanically balanced, then believe it or not, it unbalances them.

[Shrike30]

:eek: Dude.

That is a serious change from SR3- that I didn't even notice.

I wonder if my players did? Our ork shaman might have higher stats than he thinks...

[Azralon]

When describing the races to new SR players, I (over)generalize thusly:

Trolls: Best beatstick performance. Highest cost.
Elves: Highest accuracy and face performance. High cost.
Dwarves: Best durability-to-cost ratio. Medium cost.
Orks: Best beatstick performance-to-cost ratio. Low cost.
Humans: Best overall performance-to-cost ratio. Lowest cost.

[fool]

actually, if yoyu add in all the minuses that the diferent metatypes get then all the metatypes wind uop with a net of +3 attributes. Now remember that limiting an attribute is more severe than upping one is beneficial (imo at least), and your metatypes become much more balanced.

[James McMurray]

How severe a limitation is greatly depends on the chaacter. For most typical orks and trolls, not being able to get a 6 charisma is not a limit at all.

captainwhizz: I'd never allow the elf at less than 30BP. +2 agility is way too powerful, as it affects a huge number of skills that every shadowrunner should have (guns, infiltration, palming, and a coupl others I can't think of withotu a chart in front of me to look at).

[FrankTrollman]