 Knockdown?, What does it DO? |
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 Mar 24 2006, 09:55 PM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081  |
We get this show even in ol' germany, and i saw that episode a short time ago, when they tested the myth of knockback a second time. It wasn't a surprise that there was virtually none, a few centimetres for even the heavy calibre rifles. Enough to throw Buster off balance. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:08 PM
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#52
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What I've been trying to say is that the work done by the torque (and the impulse on the target, etc.) of the .45 ACP bullet at 950fps is for most intents and purposes the same as that done by the 2lbs of candy at 15.6fps. As far as tripping people is concerned the two are equally crap.
Re: "stopping power", you might find this interesting. The rest of his site is worth a read as well. A bullet that does not penetrate through the target but gets lodged inside transfers more momentum to the body of the target, hence it will "shove" it a bit harder -- but since even the full momentum transfer is very unlikely to push someone over, this has a negligible effect on the probability of temporary incapacitation. It has even less of an effect on lethality: momentum has nothing do with killing people, and all other things being equal an exit wound promotes quicker bleeding. Did Mythbusters also show how a human head shot with a powerful firearm will actually be pushed towards the shooter, and not away? This being because the brain and other matter ejected from exit wound along with the bullet tend to have more momentum than what is transfered from the bullet to the head, leading to an impulse to the (rest of) the head towards the shooter. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:14 PM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
"Negligible" perhaps, but "contributory" definitely. The contributory part has been my point, while I suspect the negligible has been yours. Incidentally, the non-penetration shoving was what I was talking about (in the first thread) when I mentioned that body armor would ironically contribute more to someone's staggering than if the bullet had overpenetrated. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:16 PM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I think I'd be more inclined to use Body + Reaction, since it's partially reflexive and partially just being sturdier. Brahm said it earlier... Agility is overweighted in combat.
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Mar 24 2006, 10:18 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I don't know. But i think its plausible ;). It would be like a ballon, or a rocket :D. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:22 PM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 8-March 06 Member No.: 8,344 |
I have to say that it's pretty interesting that unless your Body is >3 that any stun whatsoever from gel rounds will knock you down. It does have a certain thematic effect, and I know SR4 combat is very lethal, but still, 1S is like when the bullet hits your body armor and doesn't go through...
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Mar 24 2006, 10:31 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Butteblume: I remember there was some american TV show that demonstrated it on a melon. Anyhow, you can see it in effect if you look closely at the tape of JFK being shot -- unless you believe in magic bullets, that is. :)
I'll just go back to quoting the FBI Firearms Training Unit, then: "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. [...] Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously." If you don't believe me, believe the guys who study this stuff for a living. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:38 PM
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#58
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:43 PM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
:rotfl:
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Mar 24 2006, 10:45 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Of course i believe in near-magic bullets. However, JFK is just not a good example. Except for magic bullets, maybe ;). I wasn't ironic: if the bullet dislodges part of the skull, conservation of momentum will move the rest of the skull towards the shooter. That's physics. |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:47 PM
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#61
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
SR4 ammo type rules are wacked. That is just another example of how wacked. Couple that Body adjustment for knockdown with the +2 DV for gel rounds and holdouts firing gel rounds have the unarmored people rolling in the aisles. Even lightly armored with a Body of 4 and you are struggling to keep from getting knocked down because it is versus Impact, so unless they are wearing a helmet or a shield all the +2 AP normally does is bring the armor rating inline with the Balistic rating that regular ammo faces. :( |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:48 PM
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#62
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I just ignore knockdown completely with the exception of melee knockdowns. Seems to solve the problem. The only time I let targets be knocked down is on a glitched dodge roll, but that's more of a trip than a knockdown.
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Mar 24 2006, 10:59 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I wasn't trying to be funny either. AFAIK, on the JFK tape, his head seemingly jerks towards the shooter after a bullet impact, and some conspiracy theorists have tried to use this as proof that LHO wasn't the (only) assassin. But we now know, and perhaps those who were more privy to the terminal effects of firearms knew even then, that especially high velocity weapons, like rifles, tend to cause rather powerful pressure waves when traveling through liquid-filled organs, can open up craterous wounds in the head (or indeed just blow them up), and are quite capable of spraying a significant amount of matter at a reasonable velocity out of the exit wound. If you don't mind gore (and are over 18 years of age) you can see lots of heads, or what remains of them, that have sustained injuries from rifles on this site. |
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Mar 25 2006, 12:48 AM
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#64
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I've only personally seen one person shot with a less lethal round from a shotgun, and it was Knoxville in Jackass. He crumpled right over and lay there on the ground for some time.
-Frank |
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Mar 25 2006, 12:55 AM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
austere, your links win many fine prizes.
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Mar 25 2006, 02:23 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329 |
Well yeah, but you're probably not on PCP either. Do you get knocked down by attacks? Suffer pain? Do you focus on things and act rationally? Ask your doctor if PCP is right for you. PCP has been shown to greatly reduce these symptoms. Side effects are similar to a whole lot of sugar pills, and include nausea, vomiting, paranoia, elation, and crashing through plate glass windows without noticing. Women who are pregnant should not take PCP or handle broken PCP tablets or be around someone who has. |
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Mar 25 2006, 07:11 AM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
I know this thread has mainly become a discussion on whether or not a bullet can knock you down or not, but I just wanted to respond to this earlier post.
By rolling like a log to their left or right, and maybe even using their hands to slide back and forth a bit. This still isn't a great way to dodge things, though, as Frank pointed out. So it's obvious why the -2 modifier applies, but you are still able to do it in the first place. |
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Mar 25 2006, 07:24 PM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
without having read through the rest of this thread, here's my opinion on knockdown in ranged combat: make it a willpower tests against the amount of damage taken. not falling over when you get shot--or otherwise significantly injured--is a matter of your mental and physical reaction to shock. in SR, the best way to represent that is through willpower.
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Mar 26 2006, 12:40 AM
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#69
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Aku whether I say iknow someone like that is to ask whether I know myself Due to physiologicaland Psychological abberations in my makeup, I don't have a flight response |
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